Safe Speed Forums

Hi again

This is not a reply to the earlier post, however as I am unable to create my account (foulup on the email front, my email address is now already in use by the site or somesuch) I am unable to respond to some of the points raised against my (admittedly flippant but I hope with some value) other post.

Please don't think I'm trolling with my post, as soon as my proper login is sorted I will join the debate. Alright, maybe it was a little trollish. No more than 10%+/-2 trollish.

I have read a lot more of this site since my post and I'm still amused, I'm pleased to see some -at least partially- likeminded folk on here. As soon as I can join in I'll be there with some sparkling ripostes on the thread that I started (again, this isn't a reply and shouldn't be deleted summarily, it's alright to refer to another thread, right?)

I see it all the time in my line of work (education) - the propensity to believe that the world revolves around one's self and anything that interests them came into being the day they came into contact with it.

Why not spend some time reading the contents of the main site, and the years of forum posts before spouting off and wasting our bandwidth. I can be sure that your original thoughts are in fact as old as the speed camera debate itself, and your 'sparkling ripostes' have almost certainly been said before, probably several times, and countered well.

The debate is well advanced, so bring yourself up to speed before you make a fool of yourself and have to retreat even further than you have already.

good luck in your education, what are you studying?




Are you saying my mum lied to me all those years ago? Lets just check ..... nope, the world still revolves around me, phew, had me worried for a minute then.
[note, for the hard of thinking: this is irony, employed as a slightly self mocking device to raise a smile. Go on, smile. Please.]



Yup, already done that, hence why I was so amused. I even followed some liks to the pepepoo website which is even more amusing ["I was caugt doing a jillion miles per hour in a snail pace zone, I don't think I should be prosecuted 'cos I'm an ace driver, what should I do?"]



That I doubt. See, the benefit of being on the moral high ground is that the view is so much better. Despite anything you may read on this site, SPEEDING IS ILLEGAL. See, you can't argue or "counter" that BECAUSE IT IS A FACT. Go on, try. Please.


Making a fool of myself? Just thought I would do what everyone else on this site was doing. After all, if you can't laught at yourself you may be the only one who doesn't get the joke.

Oh, and kudos for the pun, 'bring yourself up to speed'!

In regards to the retreat, please reread my posts. I've not retreated on the fact that SPEEDING IS ILLEGAL. I have never said that speed cameras make the road safer, I said that speed cameras catch people who break the speed limit. I disagree with the road safety lobby who think that putting up a camera is enough to make a road safe. These are positions I hold, because I believe in them. I've not made any retreat on the facts - I have adjusted my tone becuase I read the forum rules, and also because in principal I am a courteous person and in hindsight I considered my first entry to the forum to be a little gauche in tone and presentation (although I stand by the sentiment).

A little about me. I'm 36 and have been driving for 18 years; I drive between 500 and 1000 miles a week, although 'driving' could be a misnomer as a large proportion is on the M25, perhaps 'machine minding' would be a better description. I drive a small warm hatch (206GTi) which makes me smile, particularly on country lanes in 2nd/3rd/4th gears. I have a clean license.

I don't think we (the population) should have to choose between an effective traffic police force or cameras. I would like to see both, and would prefer the former if I had to choose but I don't see why I should put up with second best? It keeps coming back to one fact for me ... speeding is illegal. I don't have truck with any of the excuses trotted out on this site because they all come down to driver error:

Didn't see the speed limit sign = driver not full aware of environment

Speed limit reduced = driver not braking / slowing early enough

Speed limit not appropriate * = driver deciding he knows better than authorities

(*actually I do have truck with this one but rather than unilaterally decide to flout the law, better to expend effort to campaign for flexible speed limits so the 20 zone outside the school can be a 40 zone at midnight - 6am)

There are 2 members of my extended family who are dead because of excessive speed. If excessive speed is not a factor in 92% (or whatever) of accidents then it IS a factor in the remainder of accidents. Is that not enough? How many accidents is acceptable? None.

Night chaps, more tomorrow.

A

I don't think any one disagrees with your point that speeding is illegal, and I'm sure very few people on here would disagree with you concerning your points about the benefit illusion of speed cameras (Basingwerk aside), that is why I questioned the amount of the site you had read, the point being the points you make are the very same ones that are being made here. So what’s so amusing? And what Moral high ground do you hold over people that share your view and put it publicly (at least on this site) before you?

The question here is if speed cameras are failing what is the best way to make our roads safer? Perhaps that would be a better discussion?

Cheers

Paul

We can read, you know. Try telling us something which isn't quite painfully obvious. Eating mince pies on Christmas day is also illegal, BTW - does that stop you?
What do you think we're debating here? Do you really believe we're debating whether or not exceeding the number shown on a piece of tin is illegal? Credit us with a bit more intelligence than that, please.



Then that means we can count on a reasonable level of debate?



Well I've been driving for as long as you've been breathing - and I had a clean licence until a couple of months ago.



Like those are the most grievous and dangerous errors a driver can make?
What makes you think that a driver who's actually there at the time, who has an awareness of the hazards that exist at the time, etc etc , can possibly be in a worse position to judge an appropriate speed than some remote councillor who;s by no means a road safety experst and who probably doesn't even drive?



Trouble is, some people just won't listen, so we get travesties like 30mph rural dual carriageways, complete with cameras.
There's just no reasoning with some people.
Not that I'm for one moment condoning breaking the law, but the law has to be worthy of respect.




Well, 2 members of my immediate family are dead because of inattentive driving at anything but excessive speeds - which is the reason I'm so passionate about it.



Not if the other 92% are being ignored.



Do you include the four to five thousand people who die every year from accidents in their own homes?
What are we to do? Install airbags at the bottom of staircases? Ban electric drills and sharp kitchen knives?

Cheers
Peter

Always thought planets orbited around the sun....



All people exceed a speed limit by a margin for couple of yards on any one journey for variety of reasons. I've even ridden my bicycle faster than the speed limit in - er certain - areas of - er Cumbria and the talivan has seen me at it... Not a lot they could do either - as disappeared into distance whilst they concentrated all their energies on the poor bloke inthe car behind me... But then - they could trace where to send the NIP to - and I look mean and lean in me lycra ... Hahah - JJs - there ways and means to speed tha knows!



By 4 mph above a speed limit.

Chaps who work at my wife's firm got pinged in Lancs at 34 mph and 35 mph. IAM members all and were offered the Speed Course. They reported back that all on this course were elderly/middle aged and mostly wimmin - all pinged at 33-35 mph. At £85 per 4 classes daily - 5 times per week - raked in some money.

Last year a surgeon colleague of mine left work after hard grind of back to back ops - over past 12 hours. He was half way home when he was called back as one patient started to deteriorate. He used his green lights and rushed back - getting pinged at 34 mph by scam near the hospital. Loss of this surgeon for one day on a Speed Course would cost the lives he'd save and put the waiting list into complete chaos. He gought it on basis he was attending an emergency - but it took over 6 months and a whopping solicitor's fee to get the ticket cancelled.

As my wife pointed out to our pet JJ when he posted a rant on PH about some drivers slowing to 65 mph behind BiB - he said he overtook them at 70 ISH!

ISH means he was above the speed limit to have passed three cars travelling at 65 mph and been able to return to lane giving space and time. But then - he would have needed to extra to do the job in safety and thus it was a safe speed. However, might not have looked good if BiB had gone for him for the margin "as it was illegal" and great pity he was not zapped by own talivan as publicity may not have been very positive ....

Thus - enforcing to letter of law is not always beneficial to safety and all decent Bibs will look at wider picture.



Driving since age 17 and now -er um - er 46 -...but done advanced courses and drive nice family Jag (seven kids) and am proud owner of one first edition Triumph Stag - bought when student medic and bank manager owned most of it for long time before I reached loftier position in medicine. Also drive Moggie - wonderful car...

Licence is a clean as date of issue....and never caused or been involved in any incident to date - but then drive applying COAST principles. Drive with my wife to her homeland about three times per year - and we live miles from anywhere - and both wife and self clock up the miles getting to and from work.



Of course they are driver error. IG's a BiB who has probably seen more accidents than most on here - apart from Ian and maybe Neil. Served my time in A&E as well..saw lots of accidents at the time Well - one does in A & E.... . Most accidents due to driver error. In fact - if you travel in Manchester, Lancs and Merseyside - the police adverts have poster on back of bus "Think! 95% of all accidents are down to driver error!" The prat ones? Prattle on about ...speed ...





1, Signs are sometimes hidden - and too close to speed limit change. Applies to anywhere in Lancs and Wales....and then there is the one in Northwich where even the Cheshire prats are reported as agreeing the signs are "confusing"


2. Try driving here - one stretch of roadway here is half mile NSL and half mile 40 mph at one point. Goes on like this for almost three miles. The there is Ings - tourists are out of NSL and in the 40 mph zone and above ping threshold before they realise.

3. Also - Ings speed limit? Lived in Cumbria a long time and the 7 men in the pub is well into our established local history.



You ever dropped of and picked up kids? 20 mph? Lucky if you can register - and constant signsfor le each way of school along the road sem to work in Durham.



And in my wife's family.... one dead because a pilot crashed the Jumbo he was in. His brother died shortly after this when a lorry ploughed into him at 20 mph. It crossed the central reserve. It had defecitve brakes and worn tyres - none of which at correct pressure either.

My wife ... she was hit at speed. 80 mph and increasing. Guy was taken ill at the wheel and just hit the throttle hard. She survived - and still drives her car ... fast and is more anti-speed camera than any on this forum - because they are stealthily replacing BiB - and they cannot ever cop type of driver or vehicle which caused the unparalleled horror in her family many years ago.

Speed the only factor? NO! More to it. Driver standards and awareness need updating and we need more BiB.

But for all that - even with our drivers at current levels - 90% are decent and safe - and are being penalised for driving their cars very safely - but just over a speed limit. They are also being caught out on ever decreasing speed limits - enforced by greed merchants.

Reason why accidents are increasing? Less BiB and concentration on lkeeping the fine money rolling in.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

The air must be thin up there too because it's affecting your ability to see and think. By all means add your support to the ranks of the hard of thinking who support the current policy on speed enforcement (no-one here is encouraging law-breaking incidentally - it says so in big yellow print on the home page, so prove that you have actually read what the site says and are not suffering from some sort of dyslexic fanticism).

However, while you do you are (deliberately or inadvertently) giving your support to a policy that is a cheap and inferior solution to road safety than the ones we had before, and as a result is leading to an INCREASE in road deaths. That makes you the killer IMHO.

Still feeling morally superior??

Would you prefer speeds chosen for legal reasons or safety reasons?

The present high degree of emphasis on speed limit compliance tends to increase the priority given to legal speed while diminishing the priority given to safe and appropriate speed. Do you think that's a good thing?

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Oh ho, stock argument number 16342 - by favouring speed cameras I am a killer. Woo hoo.

Yes, thanks, still morally fine thanks very much. Also still amused by it all.

I'm giving my support to fining or even disqualifying drivers who speed. I've never said anything different to this in my posts. I've also said that I disagree with the 'safety' lobby who think that putting up a speed camera is enough to make a road safe.

I don't see a reason to differentiate between the 2.


Increase the priority for who exactly? A good driver would give equal priority to ALL of the things that can affect their safety surely? i.e. not driving under the influence, not driving tired, not reducing the available margin for error, not driving the wrong way up a one way street (and so on ad infinitum).

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you, operating a device with which you have myriads of interfaces (including every nerve ending on your butt and thighs that makes contact with a seat, auditory and visual), cannot tell when your car is speeding up or slowing down without recorse to watching the speedo, then you need to practise your driving more.

The priority issue is a vital one. Becoming an experienced driver - with an associated large reduction in crash risk - largely depends on learning what to pay attention to and when. We run rotating priority schemes and sufficient experience means making few mistakes. We learn to expend the correct proportion of our attention to the all the potential risks in an appropriate sequence.



What makes you think the number on the speedo has any real importance at all? Would it make you crash if you covered over the speedo?

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

nope, nor does it make me crash if I add the speedo into my rotating priority scheme?

Suppose (by way of a thought experiment) We suddenly asked our 32 million drivers to give up one second's attention in every 20. do you think that would cause crashes?

We know for sure that the biggest crash causes are carelessness and inattention - Yet we're expecting drivers to pay considerably less attention to hazards ahead. The powers that be don't seem to appreciate that attention is finite and asking for more in one area must mean less in others.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I am glad you still want to keep me out and about and gainfully employed. Spent 12 months convincing basingmate that I am better than any s/camera!

But I have spent a long time as policeman - and large chunk of that time having something to do with traffic and road safety.

Have cleared up more accidents than you had proverbial hot dinners too.

Can tell you that 90% were due to driver error or defect

Scraped the remains of drunks and drugged drivers off the road in the past.

Attended accident where person was ill.

One woman crashed her car because of toothache - she had an impacted wisdom tooth.

Had dealt with major smashes where persons were not speeding - but changed lanes without checking mirrors.

Have dealt with incidents where Observation and Anticipation skills were definitely lacking to near non-existent.

Had one young lad crash and kill all occupants when he lost control during a joyride.

Have investigated cases where drunken pedestrians stepped in front of cars, buses, bikes...

Have investigated bad overtakes - again not speed related as such - but poor appliance of COAST skills.

have investigated head ons where one or both drivers were too close to centre line - but not speeding.

Had one where low sun caused a collision and person died at the scene. Driver was not speeding - but hitting a lampost at 26 mph killed him. He had a heart attack from the shock of crashing - but whilst the heart attack killed him - it was brought about by the shock of hitting the lamp post - hence treated as K in our stats. - direct consequence of the accident.


. Years ago - one young man lost his life on a slight bend. He was not speeding and he was in a small car. Only the car had a defective steering rack and pinnion - he lost control.

Had one driver injured because his car was a rust bucket and literally fell apart on him.

Investiated accidents - serious and monor - where defective tyres, brakes, supsensions, steering have been prime cause.



All down to COAST skills - and some areas are not that good at displaying signs carefully. Drove on one road (not our patch) where there was a plethora of signs - and the scam sign was small and not immediately apparent amidst this forest of road signage.

Brain will take in so much at once - and road planners really need to minimalise overly confusing signage at potential danger points.

Better still - engineer the roads so that they are not that dangerous.



Mad Doc has already mentioned the incident in my own family. His wife is my cousin. Lovely driver - makes progress!

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

There are occasions when you need to speed up to get out of a danger zone. I use discretion - because it makes better sense and safety to do so.

See it occur on fast dual carriageway where people overtake vehicles travelling at 60-65 mph and then find they need to speed to reach the space to return to lane and legal speed. Most are 77 mph to clear and give space.

It depends on circumstances - and may not always prosecute someone at 90 mph either. Depends upon what is seen and observed and on attitudes



But these are the ones who have the accidents - and BiB meet them regularly. We do manage to nab them in my patch before they do any damage - but those who rely on scams .... and have cut down on training and traffic police divisionsare have the problems reflected in their stats. It then becomes a vicious circle as they will not admit to flawed focus and buy more of the damned things - and fail to deploy BiB effectively.


I am Hendon trained and can feel the speed - more or less. Still use a useful gadget if travelling through an area which I know to operate a tight tolerance margin to be on the safe side.

You cannot be too sure of yourself when in Kodak County!

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

cue them up, cue them up ....

if it takes a whole second to flick your eyes down to an analogue dial and back up to the road ahead, I pity you. You are obviously injured in some way, it should take a fraction of that time.

Also, as any fule kno, humans don't time slice like that. I'm staring at my screen now but I can still type without taking eyes away from the screen and at the same time I know it's not raining. Magic.

pedantically speaking, I said the world, not the planet. As I only have 1 reference point then yes, everything in the world I inhabit revolves around me. There's quite a lot of published cod science on the subject, sort of saying that everyone lives in their own world, that sort of guff. It's all very spiritual. And a load of rubbish, but that sort of ruined the joke.


so what you're saying is ... speeding is ok becuase jumbo jets crash?

But you have made typos....

Besides - speedo on dash - not always accurate. The BiB mobiles are calibrated and re-clibrated regularly and still overead by 2-3mph.

My GPS gadget? Accurate to within 10 metres or so - and is much more useful on my dash where it gives me full views of road at all times.

Have been trained and re-trained to nth degree - and still learning in real terms. But I do know some people get so lathered up by rigid enforcement that eyes can be glued to speedo until scam is passed. Only reason why no accident occured is because there are no hazards in that vicinity other than the scam itself.

They would do better to do as we do here - we have posters and reminders along the roads we judge to be dangerous. We have a well publicised, highly visible and completelly legally parked cam van unit. We also have marked and unmarked doing the rounds 24./7. Even then - our accidents ... drugged, drunk, defects....and these actually drive to speed limit so as not to draw our attention - and still have accidents!

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Try our test:

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/speedo.html

It DOES take about a second because of the refocussing time.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Where? 'any fule kno', as any fule kno, is a reference to the Molesworth books and was a deliberate spelling!



yup, agree with that. Speedos overread (in general) so an indicated 70 on my car for example is shown as 65mph on my GPS (gps accuracy is something like 0.11% since the US Govt turned off the dither function)