Safe Speed Forums

So I was on my way to work today travelling on the A48, speed limit . The road was wet due to a very light dusting of snow, which was more like slush at the time, but I got stuck behind a car doing 25-30. The problem was they kept braking all the time, which became very frustrating, made the trip to work stressful
Didn't really get a chance to overtake due to traffic and solid white lines. Lucky they turned off before I got to work.
OK so we are told to slow down in the wet, but with a road with less risks and a car with correct tread on the tyres, surely going 25-30 is too slow.
Thoughts.

yes, i brought this up on Jan 6th on the thread, "Do winter drivers need to be better informed?" There are people out there who hear a bad weather forcast or see snow still on the side of the road (often days after a snow fall) and still drive as though there is three inches actually on the road. I was actually following drivers doing less than 20MPH in better conditions than you describe.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

Either they're being over cautious or they know something you don't? I always wonder that when someone is going extra carefully in bad weather. If they are braking a lot either they're scared witless or they are checking for grip and finding it wanting which is why they're going so slowly. Or they could be one of the 40mph crowd that makes a token effort to slow down to 25 mph everywhere instead

lot of these slow drivers don't increase their separation to a distance which would be appropriate if the surface was slippery. That suggests to me that the slowing down is a knee jerk reaction rather than a considered and thoughtful action.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Indeed. Unfortunately, years of being told so makes a lot of drivers think that numerical speed is the only adjustable parameter in our driving, i.e. fast = dangerous, slow = safe.

To the OP: I agree this is frustrating, but I think it would be unwise to expect someone to drive faster than they felt was safe.
Their mistake was not driving very slowly, it was not pulling over and allowing others to pass at regular intervals.

Just in case people don't believe JTB when he quotes people logis as such, here is a quote from a local forum on speed limits......


" Slower = safer - people have more time to react and when collisions do occur, there's less energy to be dissipated. It is hard to argue against basic physics. And if people can't cope with a basic thing like adhering to a speed limit, how can they cope with any other aspect of driving?"

....It's an uphill struggle folks!!!

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

Not when one of these fails to realise that the hill ahead will slow them down and they'll loose traction and come to a halt ,or worse ,turn their uphill struggle into a backward slide .

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Indeed.

Last wednesday I had to ascend a long gentle slope up a single track road in Somerset. I prayed to the driving god that no-one came the other way, as I knew my only chance was to carry quite a lot of momentum into the ascent, and if I'd had to pull in I may never have got going again.

Clear questioned thought processes.... does going 60 in thick fog help you - no - so what does and why go slower then ? brings out the argument of conditions.
Speed cam by school - show that they are the safest areas of accidents for children, therefor when you go by a cam you 'have' to looks at it and your speedo (responsible to ensure are legal(ish) allow for inaccurate speedo) - brings out the distraction argument.
What makes an impact worst or 'better' survival - brings out the argument for 3 sec before impact, which relies on driver ability using observance etc skills - leading to some arguments about driver education and skid control ability,
now you have a range of recognised good driver skills knowledge and abilities, so why do people crash - brings out the argument about eyes on road ahead to see, consider, judge and evaluate risk, therefore ..... [http://www.safespeed.org.uk/speeding.html and many others !]
how can JUST going at a speed make any of the above 'better'. No one goes out to have a crash - humans make mistakes, usually through frustration and inattention, there are several others and incorrect assumptions is also a good one to bring in too as it helps to show the mind set and attitude of the road user, all of which can help to show that it is always the responsibility of the person in charge of the vehicle that has to make a decision based on many varied and changing potential hazards within the immediate environment.
So how can a free travelling speed, help when a road user start to react to a developing situation and environment, they have already slowed to an appropriate speed for conditions. They have been paying attention because they are interested in what they are doing. They may well observe the hazard long before someone who is 'blindly' travelling at a fixed speed, and paying less attention to what they are doing as they are driving well within their capability for the conditions (driver turn off he brain and drive on automatic) - (ask how often they get to work and do not recall ALL the journey).
Drivers who pay attention (& all other good attributes) recognise hazards early - stopping crashes is prime in road safety, so the earlier you see a hazard and risk assess and make all appropriate judgments the Safer you will be. So how can a specific speed alone make you 'safe' answer it can't.
Then there are there facts from RTTM through to documents that lie to pretend that speed is a bigger killer than it is - TRL595. and so on ...
- Food for thought -

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

wmoore
I would certain as has already been suggested - note ALL that is going on carefully in case you are missing something.
If you are satisfied that the road is tricky but suitable for a higher speed for you and your skills and abilities, but there is nothing you feel that you can do for the moment, then relax, hang back not on their tail, as can happen if you start to become frustrated and want to urge them on, but place some calm music or chat on the stereo and take it easy, look around you more and settle back to being highly observant and ready in case any opportunity opens up (perhaps a section of clear road ahead).

There could be many reasons they are going slowly :
You have got so near to them they are uncomfortable and may have slowed deliberately or through a scare,
They have less ability or less clarity of vision, and don't see it to be as safe as you do,
They are an insurance scam and waiting for you to look in your mirror and will then slam on their brakes and you will/ maybe in their boot before you know what happened,
They are lost and trying to look for landmarks (less clear if much is snow covered),
They have had a recent emotional event take place and are simply not paying much attention,
Sick person or animal in the car ? Car fault ?
Other distracting influence -spider/fly/wasp(unlikely in winter), on the phone. got a medical problem going on - getting a migrain etc etc

ALL would tell me that they are for whatever reason a 'serious hazard' they are under-confident or otherwise occupied, and you need to stay, 'well clear, now'.
You cannot be sure precisely what is going on.
If you are feeling that you are becoming frustrated, consider the 'what if 'x' or 'y' is going on, have I tine to stop in these slippery conditions in the space that I have clear between me and them - and preferably long before I might touch their car ? Can you say yes? If not why not, what can you do to make yourself safe? Manage your risk to them - do you know how to do this?

If all seems correct - driver sitting up, paying attention, looking ahead only, no looking about or fiddling about in the car, etc then I might conclude that they are lost - esp with the regular braking. (Similar too if difficulty reading sat nav / map etc) or bad eyesight.
Was it only occupied by the driver? Driver talking to passenger/s ? Argument ?
Braking tends to be at night from night myopia, keep well back and overtake only if very safe margins are possible.
Braking during the day implies the driver is thinking of other things and is needing to brake to allow time to think during that section of road, your puzzle to manage your risk is 'why'?
What else can you tell us? Car age? Driver age? and so on and on ?
Was there any luggage, car full or a few items ? Several people in the car - were they all looking about - any look back at you several times?
Any animals in the car - that you can see?
If you have a tough boss, do you have a headset so that you can call them to notify them of you slight expected lateness.
What else can you do for yourself to stop your stress from building? Why are you getting stressed what is that about? Missing a good parking spot?

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Reading the OP again , I would guess the problem was more down to inexperience than anything else. Maybe it was a young driver only recently passed their test and they had a nervous passenger such as a family member who was questioning their speed? Maybe the driver thought that the speed they were travelling was safe but the nervous passenger (perhaps someone who didn't even drive) kept questioning if they were going too fast for their ability in those conditions?
I know when I first passed my test, my father had recently died and as my mother couldn't drive, I used to run her and my brother around a lot and she was always questioning my speed over certain stretches of road, until she got used to my driving.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

Then she stopped coming with me........only joking......

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

Thanks for the replies so far guys. From what I could tell the driver was an older women, with I guess her husband in the passenger seat. And the braking did annoy me more than the speed, maybe they thought I was too close, (which I wasn't) and if I had slowed down even more I would of only doing 10 mph.
Safespeed thanks for your comments...........and the good thing is it doesn't happen everyday.
And one final comment, when you pass people like that, they always seemed to have a fixed glaze, their eyes staring straight ahead.

My assistant pointed this out (the rigid forward stare). As good an admission of guilt as one could imagine.

YVW I hope it was helpful.
As a matter of interest how would you define 'not too close'?

- The forward stare implies (can't be 100% sure without being there) of the need for total concentration and of potential under-confidence but she maybe feeling the ice give under her wheels more than your car ? What was her car and what was size wheels ? (estimate)
Did you at any point ask yourself - what her / their experiences were, & try and understand all possible reasons for their action or inaction.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

I was around 2 seconds behind her. I think her car was an older Citroen, but can't be sure.
and the answer to your second question, No not at the time.

Sometimes I find with this sort of driver , a simple ,but frustrating solution . - Find a layby , stop ,and let them get some distance in front .

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on