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 Post subject: Any advice appreciated
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 20:10 
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I'm due in court this friday for speeding. I intend to fight the prosecution all out, as I genuinely believe I was not speeding.

It happened back in August, travelling south on the A3 in Surrey, just after the 50 limit. This is a wide stretch of 3 lane dual carriage way, it was a clear, sunny day and there was light traffic. I came around the corner in lane 3 with another car infront of me, and slower moving traffic to my left (it's a left hand corner) and noticed a traffic police car in the layby about half way up the straight - checked my speed and continued at an indicated 70mph. The car in front of me pulled into lane 2 as I came off the corner.

As I passed the police car I noticed the officer who was operating the laser gun getting in the car (the other officer remained in the drivers seat throughout). They screamed up behind me, and flashed their lights, so I pulled over as directed at the next junction.

They accused me of travelling 107mph, recorded at a distance of 409.5 meters, with a Klasse LTI 20/20 and said I would be considered for prosecution. They also accused me of having no insurance (which I did, and later proved).

A few things seem odd here. The officers statement says that he observed my car travelling in excess of the speed limit, then took a reading with the laser gun. The point where they were parked was only 500 meters from the corner, so even at 70mph they would have about 2 seconds to observe my car, line up the laser gun and get a reading. For some of this time there was another car in front of me. The officers statement claims he had a "clear and unobstructed view" and makes no mention of the car in front of me.

Secondly, as it also says in his statement I was in lane 3 passing other cars, so infact the window in which he could observe this would be even less, as coming off the corner I would have had other cars directly blocking his view of me.

Basically, he was pointing the laser into oncoming traffic.

Thirdly, the second officer says in his statement that he also observed my excess speed, even though he was in the drivers seat throughout.

I've asked for calibration certificates, and have recieved one from December the 4th, 8 months before. Is this normal?

According to ACPO guidelines the device should be calibrated before every period of enforcemet, and this should be noted in the officers notebook. I have copies of both officers notebooks and it was not. It seems like the calibration certificate is an annual one issued by Teletraffic, so this could be in order, but should there be any daily record of it's calibration?

Finally, according to ACPO guidelines the officer should use laser devices within 10 feet of the edge of the carriage way. The nearside of the layby is some 34 feet away from the middle of lane 3. True it is only about 8 feet from the edge of lane 1, but I would assume the carriage way refers to the lane in which the target vehicle is travelling - is this correct?

In my view, the officer got an erroneous reading from something and picked out the most likely culprit - me. From what I have read the LTI is accurate but not infallible, especially if not used properly! My aim is simply to cast as much "reasonable doubt" on things as possible.

I already have photographs and measurements of the location, calibration certificates, training certificates and copies of both officers statements and notebooks. There is no video or photographic evidence.

Has anyone else fought or have experience of a similar case, and do they have any advice they can share which might help in this case? I'm due in court this Friday, so it's getting late to ask for any more evidence. Especially helpful would be any pointers as to what to say in court, what amongst the above are the best areas to press, and what is not worth mentioning.


PS. Lots of people have already told me I will lose, and well I might. I realise this so if that's what you want to say then save it!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 20:27 
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Get yourself over to www.pepipoo.com and post the details in the Judicial process section. Someone over there might be able to offer some help.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 20:28 
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I should ask this question on www.Pepipoo.com as they are concerned with the fighting of speeding charges there. This forum is more about fighting the principle of Speed Cameras.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 20:34 
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You definitely need to visit Pepipoo. http://www.pepipoo.com

Have you got photos taken from the cop's position towards your location?

It's possible that the Lti 20/20 dodgyscope picked up the speed of a vehicle going in the opposite direction beyond yours. This is apparently a fairly common error. In such a case it should show a sign (+ or minus, I can't remember which is which) You might be able to shake the Police evidence on this issue, but be warned they will probably appear to be quite definite about it irrespective of proper recollection.

Did you see the speed reading? It's possible that by some operator error a speed reading from a previous vehicle could have been attributed to you for example if the thing wasn't triggered on your vehicle.

I think it's important that the other cop stayed in the car. I don't know if you'll get very far with it as it's easily denied.

Good luck. Sadly you're going to need it. :(

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 23:12 
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Hi, Thanks all. I've posted the same on Pepipoo, no response there as yet.

SS: Have you ever heard of a case where someone has succesfully argued this? Apparently it would show a - sign for a car travelling in the opposite direction, and no sign for a car approaching. I've done the trigonometry and it would work out about 3mm error at the gun end to be targeting the other lane. Not much error when you're using a 2kg hand held gun beside a busy dual carriageway...

However I would assume that the Magistrate would not be inclined to believe a professional traffic policeman capable of such a fundamental error as failing to notice a minus sign.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 00:32 
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As you are committed to defending it, get a damned good lawyer :!:

They will pull up every little problem with the case. 8 months since the last calibration, is far too long.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:02 
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Beam spread for LTI20-20 is 3 milliradians ( 0.174 deg)
At 409m thats 1.22 m wide assuming there is no handshake. It would be quite easy for some of the beam to reflect off your car or pass your car to hit another in the opposite carriageway.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:13 
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Richard,

Nice one, thanks. Do you know if this has ever been used as a defence?

Am I right to think that this is a 1.22mx1.22m square as well? In this case, half would be hitting the front of the car and half hitting the windscreen.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 16:30 
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AJS wrote:
They accused me of travelling 107mph


There is a hell of a difference between 70 and 107. Are you sure you didn't open it up a bit more than you say? How often do you do 107 in your car - never, now and again, all the time?

AJS wrote:
They also accused me of having no insurance (which I did, and later proved).


How come they said that? How could they have any idea about that? why were they suspicious of you?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 17:07 
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I've very rarely reached those speeds, and certainly not on sunny august afternoons on roads known to be heavily policed!
I've fairly often travelled at 90mph in light traffic on motorways, but that's a different matter.

I've no idea why they accused me of having no insurance. I didn't have the document with me there and then, but I dont carry it around with me - who does?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 17:23 
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AJS wrote:
I've very rarely reached those speeds, and certainly not on sunny august afternoons on roads known to be heavily policed!


Ahh, I see you're met basingwerk. He's our resident, err, well, I don't know what. :)

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