Safe Speed Forums

Hi all,

i would like to outline my experiences on the road regarding police driver behaviour, both traffic and panda.

(1) No seatbelts.
(2) Severe tailgaiting with an easy overtake executable.
(3) Excess speed with no warning lights or siren illuminated.
(4) Blatantly jumping red lights.
(5) Cutting in front of oncoming traffic (ME) with feet to spare.
(6) Several panda car crashes in the last year or so in my area (Inverclyde) most of them looked pretty severe.

I also noticed 2 traffic cars on a trip down to Ayr on wednesday and their manouveres and general traffic skills were quite poor i thought especially going through a roadworks section on the A77 where a merge sign was noticed by myself quite early as i always look at the road conditions way up ahead as far as i can see, guess who was last to notice the sign and cut right in front of someone at the very last second.

Andrew

I know the feeling very well! I was in a 40mph zone doing exactly 40mph (according to my speedometer) and a cop car with no blue lights or sirens overtook me, and he overtook me so fast that my car shook! Are the police supposed to stay within the legal limits if they are not on an emergency? If they are and if I get caught speeding I am going to throw that back in their faces!!!!

'Fraid not. So long as the police are on police business they're allowed to exceed speed limits. AFAIK, they are not allowed to go through red lights etc unless on emergency.

I've seen both very good and very bad examples of police driving before, but posts here and on PH seem to indicate a recent increase in unnecessary and aggressive tailgating by the BiB.

We are supposed to drive at professional standard. Our lads up here do But you only got my word for it

We are supposed to drive according to law of land - like anyone else. If you see the stuff you outlined - report it. Know my really 'orrid cousin in Wales has just dobbed in a WPC for using mobile phone! And she will deserve the dressing down - Shy had proof. Her passenger took the photos.

Not in trafpol now - but hold senior rank. We want to know about these incidents so that we can stop it!

Course the training is still world top class - but bound to say "Not as good as in my day!"

Hear Braindead was looking at a German simulator to train his lads - needs it badly - if only to control his wimmin in Pandas

Couple of howlers I've seen recently include a local (marked) car sitting ON, yes on a mini roundabout at a three way junction. Not too distracting then?
Also, I know it used to be a traffic violation to leave lights of something like more than 20 watts lit whilst staionary. Why then do we have Police cars stationary with headlights lit facing oncoming traffic when they are not at the site of a hazard? Nice way to dazzle oncoming drivers!

_________________
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

I Never ever underestimate the stupidity of anybody, Until they prove otherwise!

_________________
Life in the Air Age isn't all the Brochures Say...

Saw a young lady in a panda the other day. Tried to do a U turn using the entrance to a sidestreet. Missed it by a mile so instead of proceeding down the sidestreet 10 yards and using another turning to do a proper job of it she promptly reversed out into the main road.

And we often get traffic cars screeming down the M62, no lights then diving into the service area wher they have a nice little compound and doubtless a cuppa going cold.

Now last time I looked that was illegal.

Hi all,

The basic story may be a bit run of the mill, it was just the timing that got me, and therefore I thought I would post it.

On Tuesday of this week I received a fixed penalty for speeding on a dual carriageway driving home from work. I know this road very well and considering the level of traffic, weather conditions, car I was driving, etc. I felt that 95 mph was a safe speed. My mistake was only using my rear view mirror to check cars close enough behind me to be a possible danger, not to check for traffic police much further back. But unfortunately there was, one of the nice new silver Volvos they are using around here, and they pulled me over and dished out the ticket.

However being the type of person I am, when I got home I started thinking, were they actually right, was it really a safe speed, did I judge the conditions correctly, have I developed some bad driving habits that needed sorting out, should I go on another driver training course to sort them out etc. etc?

However, the following day I drove home from work, similar road conditions etc. but this time I was behind the silver Volvo traffic car that had booked me the day before. Speed on the same section - you guessed it 95 mph. In case you're wondering, they were not in pursuit, they were just cruising back to the station.

So assuming that traffic police driver training is of the standard we are lead to believe it is, it looks as though I had assessed the road and my speed correctly the previous day from the point of true safety, if not from the point of view of protecting my license.

Although this does undermine my argument somewhat they did also drive along one road in town at about 40 mph (they pulled away from me as I judged this to be too fast, and therefore can't be sure). This road has a limit of 30 mph but as it is at the side of a park with no boundary fence and the Schools are on half term resulting in more than the normal number of children in and around the park, in my view about 25 mph was a safe speed. Perhaps they did this sort of stuff on the course I attended but not the police driving course.

In summary - do as I say not do as I do wears a bit thin when your in your 40s.

IMO, the standard of police driving is appalling. If you want proof, look at the footage in TV programmes like "Police Stop Action" and "Road Wars". Here, you will see the standard of drivers who are allegedly the best the police have. Footage that I've seen includes police cars driving at oncoming vehicles, forcing them off the road; driving on the wrong side of keep left bollards around blind bends; driving the wrong way around roundabouts into the face of oncoming traffic; hyper-aggressive tailgating, etc. etc. Don't forget, these are examples of which the police are proud and want the public to see -- they agreed for the footage to be shown.

AIUI, there is a reluctance to prosecute police drivers because they could lose their jobs. I say tough, they should take more care. They are only as likely to lose their jobs as (say) a rep who loses his job because his company's insurance specifies clean licenses only. Just as with the rep, the police entered into a contract of employment where their job is dependent on a clean license and they should be made to face the consequences of their dangerous driving.

_________________
Will

Er - just doing our job! You know the one - catching crooks in stolen cars, boyracers, drug dealers, would-be terrorists and we are trained to do this safely

Mind you - did get an ear-bashing from my cousin who then went on to upset my colleagues on PH

This was because:

A cop overtook her on the M6 on urgent business (According to her - his donuts in the service station, but this is really urgent police business cos we get really if we don't get those donuts!) He was probably en route to sort out some numpty behaviour down the road - of course!

A cop car had to change lanes abruptly - well - we don't know where the next 999 call will take us!

There is always a reason why we are rushing off somewhere - and we are trained to do this perfectly safely!

Your choice: Us on the roads or more scameras!

Know which I prefer!

At this point I declare a personal interest. A close friend of my wife was maimed by a police officer who, while not attending an emergency and while not displaying lights or sounding sirens, failed to give way to traffic on a major road. He collided with a vehicle to which he should have given way and was deflected to trap my wife's friend's legs between his bonnet and a stone wall. It took six months of agony before that lady could walk and she still cannot walk unaided. That day, the life of a promising athlete ended and that of a cripple began. The police officer? ... he got points on his "police driving license" but his civilian license remained untarnished and he continued working.

More recently, I've seen many examples of poor police drivers, for example tailgating. One idiot from my locality regularly harasses civilians by driving about a quarter-second behind. A similar car (if not the same one) overtook round a blind corner on my side of the road and I was forced onto the verge to avoid a head-on accident. In the last few years, I have been forced to carry out emergency braking or leave the road several times to avoid police drivers pulling into my path from side roads or onto roundabouts etc.

Only last week I was nearly the victim of a police "changing lanes abruptly because the next call took him in the opposite direction" manoeuvre. I was driving at about 50 in a 60 limit approaching a "blind" right-hand bend. To my left was the entrance to an industrial site. A police car travelling in the opposite direction cut straight across my side of the road, into the site entrance and stopped. I had to carry out emergency braking to avoid a head-on collision. I'd just gathered my composure and started to move off to continue my journey when the police car accelerated to pass me on the left and would have struck my vehicle if I hadn't again carried out emergency braking. Guess what? No lights or sirens!

WRT the Police Camera Action type TV programmes, I remember one incident that involved (allegedly) one of the most skilled police drivers on his force. He decided to overtake down the right-hand side of a foreign-registered artic lorry on curving left-hand approach to a roundabout. From the officer's own video it was clear that the officer did not have sight of any of the LGV mirrors. When the gap closed between the trailer and the Armco, the police vehicle was trapped and pretty much a write-off. Yet the police sought to lay all blame on the driver of the artic. Yep, how's that for "superior police roadcraft"!

While you may be trained to drive quickly and safely, I seriously question any claim that is the way all police drivers do in fact drive. We have seen evidence to the contrary in the media. Particularly apparent is when the adrenaline starts to flow and the red mist takes over. IMO, officers who suffer from that should never be allowed behind the wheel of a pursuit car, and possibly are unsuitable for public service in the Police.

While I accept that the majority of police drivers are safe and proficient, there are bad apples and my experience suggests that they are not dealt with in a manner best conducive to public safety and interest.

Don't get me wrong here. I firmly believe that for proper road safety we need devices that detect dangerous driving not devices that measure a metric that has questionable relevance. Further, it is my opinion that the best devices to detect dangerous driving are highly-trained human experts; IOW police officers. However, I firmly believe that we need the right police officers and need to weed out the "bad apples" before the police accident statistics rise even further.

_________________
Will

Hi Will

Firstly, I am sorry to read about your wife's friend. I can understand why you are angry. Am very, very surprised that the Officer (Panda or Trafpol) in question was dealt with as leniently as you say. You are not clear whether or not he is driving or desk-bound, but would agree with you that it does seem rough justice for the poor victim regardless.

The training - arguably "not as good as in my day" - (as critical "oldie") but still very thorough. It is no easy course - you still have to evaluate every drive, and you get a real grilling from your trainers. We do try to weed out the "bad apples", and do try to address a number of issues in initial training and refresher programmes. All incidents are fully investigated, and we do try to address, initiate and implement improvements all the time. We are trying to address the issue of the so-called "red mist" within the training as well, and those programmes you have been watching have indeed mentioned some of the changes we have made to pursuit management. (Mixed reactions amongst us BiBs )

Personally have never suffered from "red mist" - have managed to get "my collars" despite this, have really upset toe-rag speeders with my lecture in that tone! (We are taught how to do it - in lots of role plays ), and have attended more horrors at RTA scenes than you can imagine.

I hope I do not offend you by next comments - but think I should say it!

As for your fright at the blind bend - was 50 appropriate speed on approach to such a bend? Given that the BiB had turned into the industrial estate to turn around, perhaps foreseeable that he would have wanted to get past you quickly?

And if you have had to emergency brake several times to avoid BiBs on roundabouts, side streets and the like, are your powers of observation, potential hazard perception, speed control, PSL, and MSM as sharp as they should be?


Just a thought - and hope you do not take it wrong way!

I'm not offended. I hope that you won't be offended by my response


50 was appropriate because I could stop within the distance that I could see to be clear and reasonably expect to remain clear. Don't forget that, the bend being right-hand from my viewpoint, I could see quite far down the road on my side. However, the other side of the road was partly obscured by the bank on the inside of the bend. I don't think that I could be expected to account for a police car emerging from behind the bank and then crossing the road onto my side. WRT your second comment: If the officer had wanted to get past me he should at least have switched on his blue lights. We were both motionless for some seconds before I started moving again. After I had started moving, the officer took off and had to cross give-way lines to rejoin the lane on my side of the road. Yes, I anticipated he was going to speed off in my direction but he didn't make a move in a timely manner. From the expression on his face I suspect he was shocked and had not anticipated other traffic (i.e. me).


Perhaps you're right. Perhaps I should drive everywhere at 5mph because that's the only way I'd avoid the incidents I described, which can be put into two categories:

* The police driver was hidden from me by an obstruction, which means that the officer could not see traffic on the major road he was entering. Perhaps you could correct me on this, but I understand you should move forward slowly until you can see it is clear to proceed. Doing so lets traffic on the major road have sight of your vehicle and take unhurried evasive action if required. In all such cases where I've needed emergency braking, the police car pulled out quickly without checking it was safe to do so.

* I had sight of the driver, made eye contact and noted the police car was stopped or decelerating with room to stop safely before assuming it was safe to proceed. Having discounted the police driver as a potential threat, I turned my attention to further ahead. The police driver in all cases then pulled out with little or no warning.

No offence taken. I know that my driving is not perfect and recognise that it never will be. To think otherwise would, IMO, be unforgivable and dangerous arrogance. Accordingly, I'm always checking my driving performance for errors and seeking to improve. FWIW, I've been driving thirty+ years, have a clean license, have never had an accident that has been my fault, and I have never collided with another vehicle.

How about the attitude of police officers towards their own skills? My experiences over the last thirty+ years suggest that some police drivers are dangerously arrogant. Perhaps it's because they've been taught to address the public in that tone that they come over as arrogant. That said, I've had more near misses due to police drivers than I have due to others, which is frightening if you consider the ratio of police drivers to civilians.

_________________
Will

Hi Will

Perhaps you are right about that tone of voice! A learned skill - well it was for me anyway! Only use it when I have to! Honest! I joined as so-called "fast track Uni entrant" which meant lots of swotting for exams (though have to say - not as bad as the Mad Moggie who apparently had to fit his specialist studies in-between his 120 hour junior working week! Or even his wife! ) If you are wondering about the relationship - my Dad and his wife's Mum are brother and sister! (Get lots of earache from that mob as well! )

I am not offended by your response to me - expected something like this!

Whereabouts are you? Not making excuses - but these sound like "pretzels in Panda" as my lovely Swiss relatives all call them!
Panda pretzels have not been trained to our very superior levels! but are complacent numpties who think that the uniform makes them an immediate expert on every aspect of the law. (Likely to get into bother over this comment as well by the pretzel division! - ooops!) But if you let me know the Force - might give me clues that way .

But if you think we are misbehaving on the road - you should complain about us, quoting time and reg number - so that we can address the situation. Of course, you will get the "Your word against ours response" - but that does not necessarily mean they take no notice!

You are forever seeking to improve? Long may you continue to do so! That is nice to hear! Seen some really awful sights at crash sites in my time!

You ask about my attitude towards my own skills. Mate! I am just like you - always looking for improvement. Am human after all! Lots of us are perfectly normal - and certainly not arrogant. But agree - some are - and that is bad!

My job is simple: employed to enforce the law and when I was trafpol -if deemed appropriate I used judgement and delivered the stern ticking off instead of the penalty point punishment. However, have moved upwards and onwards so to speak - and am lucky enough to work in sensible Constabulary

Aw! We are not that bad - surely!

Have some agreement with Willcove here, I've certainly seen marked police cars doing thigs that make one raise an eyebrow and think..hmmm, should they really be doing that? Tailgating (or what I consider tailgating anyway) is one of them.
As for the publics reaction to the that tone of voice thing, I think this is a societal thing..did a bit of research into this in my uni days
Folks today just aren't used to being told what to or what not to do, in any tone of voice. This has IMHO, led to a "I know best, don't lecture me" attitude. But what else is a well meaning Police Officer supposed to do, short of issueing a ticket ? In this sense I'm afraid it's the public that have become arrogant, not the Police.

I've lived in several locations since I started driving. The incident with my wife's friend was in Strathclyde; last week's incident was a Devon & Cornwall panda. That said, I've also seen appalling police driving in recent years in Liverpool, Birmingham, Dorset, and Surrey. Not all were pandas.

Incidentally, most examples in those fly-on-the-wall, "Police Stop Action" reality shows involved traffic cars (unless they're now equipping pandas with video equipment). I find it disturbing that a pursuit car should drive at oncoming motorists, forcing them off the road, or drive in excess of twice the speed limit around a blind right-hand bend to the right of the keep-left bollards at the bend's apex. I find it more disturbing that the police are proud of that standard of driving; proud enough to approve the footage for publication. Yes, the car they were chasing was also guilty of the same dangerous driving. However unlike the police, the criminal's first priority is not public safety.


My point was that some police drivers appear to have the arrogance to assume that they are always in the right, even after they've just caused an accident. For example, the traffic officer who got his car squashed while trying to overtake an artic on the approach to a roundabout and then blamed the LGV driver. However, I'm prepared to concede that some apparant arrogance may be because of the way that officers are trained to deal with the public. To be effective, they must always appear to be in charge. It's a very hard balance because they must be both servant and master at the same time.

_________________
Will

Hi Will

Tailgaters? I have never tailgated - on basis that it is dangerous and I like having space to see road ahead! Will not dispute that some colleagues should know better - and if you are being tailgated by anyone - increase space between you and car in front to give numpty room to move into should he overtake you, or pull over when safe. (You could always try the Swiss mob's tactic - they hold their "twazak" until in sight of the scamera and then pull over. Numpty accelerates and gets pinged! One way of getting PC Gatso to catch a "dangerous" driver - and even funnier if said "twawak" is er - one of us!

As for "Police Camera Action" etc - bet the dodgy footage involved those Welsh guys - as they are hopeless at overtaking tractors.

You agree it is hard balanceto be servant and master at same time - too right!

When we pull people for motoring offence - we have no idea what kind of peron is in that car. Remember - one colleague was shot dead over Christmas when he pulled someone on a routine. I've had knives pulled on me twice from chaps in back of my car. Scary!

I have had the abuse before even getting my mouth "in gear" to deliver the lecture in the required tone! Had people throw up all over me and in the back of my pristine flash turbo charged copmobile.

I have also had misfortune to see lots of people with horific injuries at crash sites - limbs everywhere and one decapitation.

Perhaps our attitude is because of who and what we deal with - and unfortunately some of us view all as potential "danger"
[/i]