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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 06:02 
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/ ... 67,00.html

Rural 60mph limit may be reduced in bid to save lives
By Ben Webster

A review is ordered as figures show the most deadly routes

SPEED limits on all rural roads are to be reviewed in the light of figures that show motorists are 3½ times more likely to die driving in the countryside than in towns.

The Government will order local authorities to reconsider the limits on all roads this month, particularly rural ones, where 63 per cent of road deaths happen.

Ministers believe that the default 60mph on rural roads is too high in many cases, but they also want the limit raised on some 30mph and 40mph roads, where the risk to pedestrians and cyclists is low.

Figures from the Department for Transport show that of the 1,663 car drivers and passengers killed in 2004, some 1,133 died on rural roads. The death rate on such roads was 0.7 per 100 million km driven and on urban roads, 0.2. Motorways were the safest roads, with a death rate of only 0.1.

Brake, the road safety charity, is pressing for the speed limit on twisting, narrow rural roads to drop from 60mph to 30mph or 40mph.

A survey published today by the insurer Direct Line found that three in four motorists thought the 60mph speed limit on rural roads was too high. More than a quarter admitted breaking the limit, mostly because they thought there was less traffic and fewer pedstrians on rural roads The survey of 2,600 drivers by YouGov also found that: two in three drivers did not know the speed limit for rural roads; more than half thought there should be more speed signs in the country; and more than 60 per cent said that learner drivers should have compulsory lessons in country driving.

Direct Line also called for the standard rural road speed limit to be cut to 40mph. A spokeswoman said: “In towns you are much more likely to be involved in a rear-end shunt or little bump or scrape, whereas head-on collisions or accidents involving animals straying on to the road are much more likely on country roads.”

A study by the department in 2004 found that 40 per cent of men and 24 per cent of women believed mistakenly that because rural roads were quieter there was less chance of crashing on them.

Twenty-one per cent of men thought driving fast on rural roads late at night was safe because they could see oncoming cars’ headlights. Andrew Howard, head of AA road safety, said: “People who regularly use rural roads can slip into passive mode and be caught out by the unexpected.”

The 12 roads with the highest crash rates last year were all single-carriageway “A” roads in rural areas, an AA study found. The worst was the A682 in Lancashire, between the M65 and the A65, where 23 crashes in three years left people dead or seriously injured. The AA study described the road as undulating and lined with hedges and mature trees, with narrow verges and several blind brows.

A spokesman for the department said that setting more appropriate speed limits would encourage drivers to have more respect for them.

“Local authorities will be required to review limits on all roads by 2011 but we are not going to prescribe what they should do. They need to look at the engineering and safety record and if circumstances have changed,” he said.

COUNTRY CODE

On hills, the vehicle going downhill should give way — unless it is a lorry

Drivers on narrow lanes must be able to stop in half the distance that can be seen along the road

When approaching a blind corner a driver should imagine that a cyclist has fallen round the bend

On meeting a vehicle on a narrow road the driver who is the shorter distance from a passing place should reverse. But remember that van drivers have limited rear visibility

Source: Institute of Advanced Motorists

Image

=============================
The critical flaw, of course, is to assume a non-existent link between rural speed limits and accident rates.

That, and to paint A road crash rates onto 'country lanes'.

Rural road deaths (2004) are as follows:

A roads 1,220
B roads 265
other roads 271

'Country lanes' will be included in 'other roads', so obviously we have considerably fewer deaths than 271 in a year.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 07:39 
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Safe Speed issued the following PR at 07:26 this morning:

PR338: Rural road safety not improving

news: for immediate release

Rural road safety is in the news today. There are calls for reduced speed
limits. Safe Speed warns that widespread or unnecessary speed limit reductions
come with dangerous side effects, including:

- driver skills are acquired more slowly
- increase in frustration
- increase in inattention
- genuine life-saving opportunities missed

Official figures for deaths on 'non-built up' GB roads:

1994 1874
1995 1941
1996 1899
1997 1938
1998 1855
1999 1823
2000 1806
2001 1838
2002 1838
2003 1913
2004 1756

['Non-built up' roads are defined as those with a speed limit greater than
40mph, excluding motorways. As speed limits have been reduced and extended,
fewer miles of road are included in the 'non-built up' category.]

These figures show no significant change for a decade. During that decade,
speed cameras have mushroomed and speed limit reductions have been widespread.

Paul Smith, founder of the Safe Speed road safety campaign
(www.safespeed.org.uk) said: "'Speed kills' road safety policy has failed.
Reduced speed limits and millions of speeding fines have affected average
driver quality adversely and made the roads more dangerous. Department for
Transport is apparently in denial about their deadly mistake."

"Nowhere is this more apparent than on rural roads, where driver quality is the
critical issue. We MUST get back to road safety policies based on skills,
attitudes and individual responsibility."

"Speed limits, when properly set and enforced with due regard for the
conditions, are a useful road safety intervention, but the modern obsession
with speed limit reduction is proven ineffective."

<ends>

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 07:40 
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You can impose a 10mph limit on "country lanes" if you want to satisfy Brake etc. It's just that nobody will take any notice as it is totally unenforceable and pointless.

The endless ratchet of daft rules wil just lead to more widespread faking of numberplates and people driving without registering their vehicles.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:10 
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Quote:
Ministers believe that the default 60mph on rural roads is too high in many cases, but they also want the limit raised on some 30mph and 40mph roads, where the risk to pedestrians and cyclists is low.


Who's betting the number of reductions will exceed the number of increases? :roll:

Quote:
On meeting a vehicle on a narrow road the driver who is the shorter distance from a passing place should reverse. But remember that van drivers have limited rear visibility

That'll be the day!


New advice for women over forty ( :bunker: ): On meeting a van in a country lane, stay perfectly still (car and body) even if your back wheel overlaps a passing place. The van driver will eventually (possibly after some profane gesturing...) reverse to the previous passing place, even if he/she has no rear view mirror and has to go backwards round a corner.

If the van driver resolutely refuses to back up for you, then:
1. Flap your arms about and gibber a bit. If this fails,
2. Reverse in a constant-radius circles, so that you repeatedly bump into the verge and have to drive forward to correct your path; perhaps continue (1) while doing this.

And don't forget: if you do reach a passing place, however polite the van driver attempts to be in their acknowledgement, stare rigidly ahead, muttering under your breath.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 13:06 
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This is rediculous. Talk about dumbing down driving :x

What about good quality single-carriageway roads, like the A303 Ilminster bypass in Somerset or A75 (the road that goes from north Cumbria to Stranraer, I think)? Would they also be subjected to a 40 limit?

Not only would this just be stupid (and not make roads safer), it would also motorists even more confused about what the speed limits are and the scamera partnerships would be raking it in. Any of these ministers ever head of KISS (keep it simple stupid)?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 13:17 
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:banghead:

FFS you could have a speed limit of 500mph on every out of town road in the country and if drivers stuck to the 2 simple and critical rules there would be very few accidents:

Always be able to stop in the distance you KNOW to be clear - this doesn't just apply to single track roads IAM.

Never get closer than 2 seconds to the vehicle in front.

Simple.

The only reason people get killed on rural roads is because they treat the speed limit as a target. Lowering it won't make any difference.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 13:25 
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Imagine a speed limit on the Hardnott Pass at night in the wet. Where would the challenge be then? :roll:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 13:29 
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Can anyone imagine the unutterable boredom of driving a couple of hundred miles cross-country on decent, quiet A roads at 40mph? Especially at night.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 18:30 
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this is far worse than any speed camera debate - we must fight this


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 18:34 
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Also see BBC News, Wednesday, 2 August 2006, 05:59 GMT 06:59 UK
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/mid/5236358.stm
Quote:
Rural speed limit is 'too high'

The 60mph speed limit on rural roads is too high and should be lowered, according to three in four motorists questioned in a new survey.

More than 60% of those questioned by insurance firm Direct Line said the driving test should include tuition on how to drive on country routes.

The company has called for the rural speed limit to be reduced to 40mph.

But one mid Wales road safety campaigner said that without police enforcement this was "unrealistic".

The poll also found that 48% of women found driving on rural roads difficult. This compared to 36% for men drivers.

One area where most people in mid Wales would expect this survey to be welcomed, is along the A487 coast road between Aberystwyth and south-west Wales.

It takes drivers through the Ceredigion villages of Llanfarian, Rhydyfelin and Blaenplwyf, where people have been campaigning for years for tighter speed restrictions.

But local councillor Alun Lloyd Jones branded the more general rural speed restriction suggestion as "unrealistic".

Along with others, he has fought for improved road safety measures in all three communities near Aberystwyth.

The campaign has led to a 30mph limit through Llanfarian, while bollards have been placed on a section of pavement.

Mr Jones said: "A lot of drivers speed through the three villages and there have been five deaths in Rhydyfelin alone in the last 20 years."

"I've been campaigning to get a roundabout and a pedestrian crossing there since I became a county councillor in 1991 and my father campaigned too in the 1970s.

"Other traffic calming measures have been put in place and Rhydyfelin is a 40mph limit now."

However, Mr Jones said that unless police were on the spot few people obeyed the limits.

Direct Line said 64% of road deaths took place in rural areas and that a quarter of those who drove in the country admitted speeding.

A spokewoman said: "The majority of motorists on the country roads in summer are likely to be unfamiliar with them and they can be extremely dangerous - especially when approached at high speeds.

"We're also calling on the Government to reduce the speed limit from 60mph to 40mph as we feel the current speed limit is too fast for narrow rural lanes."

Mr Jones added that motorists needed to show "common sense".

"There are some areas that need to be 40mph, but there are many other stretches where 60mph is perfectly fine".


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 18:51 
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They still didn't define what a "rural road" actually is...

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 18:52 
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Jesus wept, I've just watched this on the BBC Six o'clock news. There is never a mention of any "safety measure" other than reducing speed limits. They show footage of some village that apparently has a 60 mph limit through it, how many of them are there nowadays?
Then it gets even worse, some anecdote from a caravanner about how people are desperate to overtake him. Maybe banning caravans would be a good place to start?
How does this get on the national news? lazy, lazy, lazy journalism, the woman responsible should get posted to Iraq and get a sharp kick up her proverbail.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 18:53 
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It seams like a goverment plot lead out by brake and direct line.
Whilst westminster are on holliday :(

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“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 18:58 
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anton wrote:
It seams like a goverment plot lead out by brake and direct line.


And The Times.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 19:01 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
anton wrote:
It seams like a goverment plot lead out by brake and direct line.


And The Times.


only airing their viewpoints

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 20:29 
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If by 'rural roads' they mean anything classified as an A road and below (as per the accident statistics), that would mean that the max speed limit across the entire county of Dorset would be 40mph! :o (no motorways)

Totally crazy!

As for 48% of women finding it difficult driving on country roads, they didn't ask this one (I bet they asked those who live in cities). I love country roads. So much less traffic and few plonkers :) Sure, on the NSL country road you do get the odd plonker, but by and large drivers adapt their speed to the conditions, often being well under the limit.

I don't suppose those accident statistics break down on a seasonal basis do they?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 20:35 
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Well I've always thought it crazy that some country roads have NSL and thus a speed limit of 60mph when it is totally unsafe to drive at such a speed, yet decent 3-lane dual carriageways are often 50mph and sometimes even 40mph with a lot of enforcement.

Of course the problem is that just because 60mph is the speed limit it doesn't mean it is safe to drive at that speed, but certain authorities are so bent on enforcing "limits" rather than enforcing driving safe for the conditions.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 20:56 
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Earl Purple wrote:
Of course the problem is that just because 60mph is the speed limit it doesn't mean it is safe to drive at that speed, but certain authorities are so bent on enforcing "limits" rather than enforcing driving safe for the conditions.


Where I live I'd have to drive about 20 miles for the nearest speed camera and there's only one A road anywhere near me. So, most of my driving is on rural/country roads. It is very noticeable that the few serious accidents that I can recall having occurred within a radius of about 20 miles, in the last few years, have almost without exception, been where at least one of the parties involved was from outside the county and all were in summer.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 21:00 
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The problem with the rural NSL limit is it covers such a wide range of road conditions - from wide fast roads that 70-80 can be achieved on, to ones where 20mph would be very dangerous. Personally I love driving a good wide bendy and hilly rural road - much more fun than motorways :) However, there's one road I drive occasionally that is NSL along a very narrow section where you can just pass other cars if taken very carefully. However, when you reach a wider straighter section that can be driven much quicker...they've reduced the limit to 50mph :? Logic anyone??

Just posted in the Near Miss forum about my recent rural road experiences: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8518

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 21:26 
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Nemesis wrote:
The problem with the rural NSL limit is it covers such a wide range of road conditions - from wide fast roads that 70-80 can be achieved on, to ones where 20mph would be very dangerous. Personally I love driving a good wide bendy and hilly rural road - much more fun than motorways :)

Sure is, and the sense of freedom is wonderful :)

Quote:
However, there's one road I drive occasionally that is NSL along a very narrow section where you can just pass other cars if taken very carefully. However, when you reach a wider straighter section that can be driven much quicker...they've reduced the limit to 50mph :? Logic anyone??


The 'logic' is that back in the good old days and NSL, you were expected to use your own judgement of what was safe and what was not and hence you learnt to adapt and become a safe driver without the need for overbearing enforcements compelling you to do what you already knew was safe.

Having driven carefully and safely using your own judgement, you are presented with a wider and straighter bit of road - this is exhilaration zone! After the constraints naturally imposed in the previous section, it is something of a relief to not have to concentrate to the extent previously required. The psychology of the exhilaration zone is recognised by the authorities, who in their wisdom, think that drivers cannot cope with it. So they feel the need to calm you down and hence impose reduced speed limits.....or cameras. The latter is usually to be found when they need a bit more cash to erect even more speed impositions in other exhilaration zones.

As told to me by Noddy ;) :lol:


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