Safe Speed Forums

Just over one year ago I was approaching a junction to turn right. The junction is situated on a ninety degree bend. I know that a lot of vehicles approaching this bend cut the corner so as I approached I was being very careful and observant. I saw a vehicle approaching the bend so I stopped about 10-12 feet before the hazard line and around two feet inside it. The other vehicle then proceeded to cut the bend and drive head on into me.

This will be going to court soon so I would appreciate your views on anything that I may have done wrong.

I am currently training for IAM and this has affected my approach to junctions, with my observers telling me that I need to be more positive when it is clear.

Trying to work out the layout in my mind here. From what you say it sounds like a 90 degree left hand bend with a minor road on the right which you wanted to turn into. Because you knew that oncoming traffic sometimes cuts the corner and because you could see another vehicle approaching the bend you made a little extra room but got hit anyway. Well, if you saw the other vehicle then presumably they could have seen you unless perhaps there was some difference in the vehicles to account for this (e.g. could the top of your vehicle been below the other driver's line of sight but not the other way round - like a mini and a luton with a hedge between them). Was there anything else you could have done to alert them to your presence? Horn? Lights? You don't say enough to judge whether either would have been appropriate. Did the location give you enough room to go to the left once you realised the muppet was on a collision course? Quite possibly you wouldn't have had enough time since you'd already stopped, but did the muppet give you any hope of doing so anyway or was he that far over it wouldn't have made any odds? But assuming that you could reasonably expect the other driver to have seen you and given that he was clearly on the wrong side of the road it sounds like there wasn't a great deal you could have done.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

If the layout is what Gatsobait describes, this could well be a SMIDSY (or killer pillar) incident with the other driver's offside A-pillar obscuring his view of you. It would be interesting to know whether Gatsobait's description is correct and also what type of car both you and the other driver were driving.

However, on the face of it I suspect that there isn't much else you could have done.

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Will

Assuming that this is a left hand bend, paradoxically keeping left can tend to increase the risk because it shortens vision for both drivers. If you keep very far left you might even persuade the other driver that you aren't there at all (if you see what I mean)!

I'd tend to take the opposite approach and take an assertive position well to the right for early vision. This might also give you space to chink left if a hazard appears.

I'm not trying to suggest that you were to blame in any way - that sounds most unlikely - but seeing and being seen is the key to so much in driving.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Hi

thanks for your replies . It is indeed as you imagine with fairly clear sight lines. I was driving a Nissan 200sx and the other fellow a Mondeo. It appeared to me that he was looking straight at me and I did not have time to move out of the way.

I have a photo of the scene taken in Daylight ( the accident happened at Night) but I do not know how to post it on here. I personally think it highly unlikely to be a Pillar Issue because as it seems to me that if i can see his eyes then he should be able to see me and even when on a straight collision course he made no effort to swerve away which he had time and space imo to do. I also had my headlights on.

sorry its a bit disjointed just trying to answer the questions

Could I have moved out of the way ? Yes I had enough space but not enough time from the moment I realised that he was on a collision course. By the time I had thought about it he had hit me. It was offside to offside corner of my bumper to his. I believe that I was in a reasonable position for the other driver to see me clearly which is why I was not expecting him to hit me and was unable to react in time.

I understand very much what you are saying. It may have the correct approach to drive up to the line and force him onto his own side of the road but if he had not seen me because he was not looking the impact may have been much harder and also his excuse that it was me encroaching into his path would be more difficult to disprove(no witnesses)

Normally if there is no vehicle in sight when approaching this junction I would approach with caution and drive upto the line but knowing that they do cut this corner if a vehicle is in sight I stay back and to the left until I know they are on the correct path (Easier now they have repainted the lines)

It's a pretty wierd crash.

What did the other driver say?

And I have to ask... You didn't have the offside headlight out did you?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

If it happened at night you have to wonder why the other driver didn't realise you were there just from your head lights lighting up part of the road and corner. Even if his A pillar just happened to be in the way of the lights it wouldn't block the lit up bit of road. Unless maybe the corner has pretty good street lighting in which case your headlights may not have made a noticeable difference from the other driver's POV. Had this a few weeks ago when I didn't realise a headlight was out until I'd left the lit section I was in and went down a darker road where I could see straight away that the pattern wasn't right. But if there weren't streetlights it sounds like you should have been easy enough to see. Maybe, and I'm grasping at straws here, you could have flashed your main beam on briefly to give him a bit of extra light to notice, but with clear sight lines there'd be no reason to do so unless you were expecting him to do something daft.


www.fotopic.net can host images on the net for you for free. Quite a few others about as well. Once it's hosted you can post an image here by inserting [img]image%20address[/img] into the text. HTH

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Sounds like a freak accident. Perhaps the other driver was drunk, or drugged or suffering from psychological problems. Maybe he just decided on eday he wanted to have a crash?

I am intrigued as to why it is going to court. From the description I would have though it was a clear cut case which no insurance company would attempt to fight in court.

It's tough without witnesses. From the approximate damage the most common crash development would have been our OP starting to turn across the oncomer.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

The other driver at the time just stated that he guessed that it was his fault to which I replied "too right". However his statement via his ins co changes the story completely, blames me for speeding because I have a sports car, claims he has a witness, said I had no lights on and is full of inconsistencies.

To answer your question ,No my car was in full working order.

A friend of mine claims to know the other driver from way back and tells me he has an eye problem. However i have no proof other than hearsay.

I have had quite a fight with the Insurance co & solicitors to get it to court because they wanted to settle 50:50. then when I refused that they withdrew the legal cover. When I told them that I would go ahead on my own they told me i had to use their solicitors at my cost (upto £10000 or more if i lost). Finally the solicitors themselves agreed to take the case.

The reason it is going to court is because the other driver /ins co have steadfastly refused to accept the blame by either ignoring our claim or when they have deigned to reply it has been to say that they hold me at fault. We have asked them to settle or we go to court, again they have not responded.

It is very difficult to explain in sufficient detail the accident but given the nature of the bend and where the damage occured it is almost impossible for it to have been a case of me crossing into his path.

Just so as you can see clearly the scene (hopefully the picture works)

http://pics-by-stuart.fotopic.net/p27196960.html

sorry cannot seem to get it to work

edit by - I've adjusted it above so that it works as a clickable link

Thanks for doing that.

I stopped about half a car length behind the mondeo in the picture.

Normal position for turning is about half a car length forward of the mondeo.

But you can see from the position cars turning right tend to take a defensive position due to vehicles cutting the corner.

I believe that there are very good sight lines on approaching this bend from the direction the silver car has come from.

Hence my asking whether I could have avoided what happpened

Many thanks for your replies

With lines in the road like that - sue the council!

Exactly. A decent set of white lines will overcome 95% of issues at that junction.

The trouble is if you sue they'll probably put one of the infernal mini-roundabouts there to everyone's detriment!

A quick update

Still ongoing - other party now claims he did not receive summons/Court papers so my solicitors have had to reissue.

Council recently repainted the lines about six weeks ago and they are starting to wear out again with all the people cutting the corner.

A mini roundabout might be a good thing ( although I detest them).

I wonder if having a fairly wide hatched area on the bend would help or whether it would just make things worse when turning drivers try to use it as a refuge area.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

it is difficult to say but I think it would only make it worse because at the moment drivers tend to stop short to take a look before approaching the line. if you provided a "safe haven" for turning it may entice people to approach upto the line without allowing for drivers who regularly cross the line.

it is so much easier to talk when you can use your hands but I hope you understand what I am trying to say