Safe Speed Forums

"... and kill and injure hundreds! Do you know the safety records for trams are horrendous, with significantly more people killed/injured per passenger carried than cars. "

I take it you refer of course to like for like

Please feel free to post the evidence.....

For what exactley?

A driver using inappropriate speed on bend?

The police supplied an estimate of 70 mph, their is no way a van is going to go round the bend at that speed.

Then again, their is no way the police could actually give an estimate of the vans speed. They are only accurate within 30 mph each way.

Mr bennel, claims he was driving at 40 mph, which is 10 mph below the limit.

Being the appropriate speed to negotiate the bend.

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Steve

No doubt IG will respond to you as he is a BiB and knows thing or two about repsonding to emergencies.....

With regard to ambulance drivers ferrying emergencies to and from our hospitals...... yes - all highly trained and regularly tested. And the risk element is matter of judgment. But basically - the rule of thumb is still to drive in manner which does not compromise safety.



Thanks for letting us know why you decided to give up driving.

My wife could have felt the same - but faced her fears - even stronger person as result and in a family of "petrolheads" - probably the most "petrolheaded" and most certainly our safest one too.

But, mate, you are a lot less safe on a push bike in real terms. Not because motorists are such naughty people - but because on a bike - you are vulnerable to the weather, dark, pot holes, grids, and plain daft cycle lanes - the ones in Cumbria come vividly to mind here .......

Public transport? Does not always go where you need to go - and not always that safe either...dirty, draught, full of germs , never punctual and never co-ordinated with other buses/trams/trains ......and not cheap either.




Manchester and Blackpool - both have had high accident rate with trams - mate....

Also expensive - cost me a fortune in Blackpool the other week. Wife took the eldest (and current youngest in household - aged 4) on long jaunt before his test down there. I joined them in the evening with the rest of the brood and we spent a serious shed load of money on the tram from the Pleasure Beach up to Bispham so that the two youngest could see the lights and the Bispham ones are more small kiddy orientated

Manchester trams are also very expensive to use as well - and not that frequent at night either.

What alot of complete tosh!

The speed of the vehicle makes no differance to the risk of death, it is all down to who is paying attention to the hazard.

The sooner the hazard is spotted, the sooner the brakes go on, the sooner the risk of death is diminshed.

A 20 MPH impact will kill 100% of the time

The only thing that improves your chances is hazard perception.

All your science means jack didley

As you can NOT estimate when the brakes will go on

Back to the drawing board for you, as it is clear you do not have the first bit of understanding of crash impact & it effects.

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Steve

When I lived in Munich, the tram ran down the middle of my street. It was so quiet, they had to fit bells on them to warn people they were coming! Also, being totally emission free, there was zero local pollution. There is an argument about electricity generation, but I'll pro nuclear, and very selfish, so I don't care as long as it doesn't bother me. I don't know about the safety record on trams, but I have never heard of one crashing or coming off the rails, and they seemed safe to me when I was on them. They did not seem fast enough to crash hard. I'd like to see this evidence as well.

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I stole this .sig

HeHeHeHeHeHeHe!!!!

Had me doubts about you before!

Now I don't!!

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Drive in haste, repent at leisure.

Burps mate - Germany, Austria, Switzerland - different standard of tram altogether. Also co-ordinated with other public transport facilities - but North Germany (OK oldeer trams) have had some nasties in their time. Switzerland had one with a brake failure on a downhill as well and think Austria had one or two problems in a deep freeze.

But I will agree - on aggregate foreign trams are very nice.

Manchester has had five accidents since trams came back tothe city about 12 years ago now. Was some hoo-ha in press over government refusal to extend the network as well....

Blackpool .... well - tourists and drunks j-walking .....in front of them has always been a problem.

Plus drivers do not meet trams as a norm - so there have been accidents between trams, cars and cyclists in both cities because visiting drivers simply have not met this kind of hazard before and mis-read the situation. Accidents are low impact - but have been "messy"

About sums you up.

A complete Joker.

Come back when you have some facts to back up your posts

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Steve

Speed has no effect!

If you drive at 100 mph and react in the correct manner to hazards, you will not have an accident.


I have a string of speeding convictions.

Not a single accident

Which rather puts your theory out of the window.

The most dangerouse driver on our roads, is one that cannot identify or react to a hazard.

If you are not looking for the hazard, you will not miss it. It is all very simple stuff

At any speed

Soren, you may like to use your science, however this will not help you.

I will stick to the safest method, hazard perception.

Your driving qualifications soren

Do you have any

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Steve

Know what you mean. Seen a tram in the rear view mirror once in Croydon ... wtf, I thought they were kept separate from the car bits. Apparently not, just mostly separate . Oh, and I wouldn't want to have to try an emergency stop while wheels may be partly on steel rails, especially if it's raining. Another reason for making sure cars and trams are kept separated. Even then there's still idiots about who can manage to screw it up:

(From http://www.croydon-tramlink.co.uk, an unofficial website about Croydon trams. They've got more images in the Misplaced Vehicles photo gallery.)

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Hi George!

Long time since we "met" .....





This highlights one of the problems with the speed cam. Last winter we actually did someone for undue care in a 30 mph zone at 30 mph because the road was not safe to travel at 30 mph.

Left to a speed cam - person would still be tootling around endangering people. Driving standard as observed was so awful that there was little choice ....hail storm, icy road, parked cars, pelicans and person still drove like a pillock....



George - I have seen a lot over the years - and heaved my stomach contents over it many a time. So yes - you do need to be hard and tough to handle this kind of work.

I am sorry that you let it get to you though and will acknowledge that people who are not subjected to such sights do not fully appreciate just how dreadful it is for us to see appalling injuries.

But - there is speeding and there is speeding - and I will allow some leeway to a driver who drives safely but strays above a speed limit or even gets "carried away" with a new toy for just under a mile We can usually tell the difference between a normal blipper and a blatant p1ss artist!

My patch has a severe problem with bikers at the moment. For some strange reason - 200 mph on rural roads seems like a "good idea"...

Well - confess - really cannot see the thrill of this at all. Especially when they lose control and my lads are literally picking severed limbs from the surrounding countryside ....

Would a speed cam work - not for these idiots - no! They would reckon that their speed would be beyond the scope of the speed traps ... because brains are about same low level as their riding abilities here....

We are gradually sorting the problem - as it seems that high visible police presence seems to quell enthusiam to some extent - but we are sure having to chuck staff at the problem....

As for the sorry tale in your orginal post - guy would have been pulled by me long before he got to the bend in question had I been there - and would have felt the full acid in the lecture.

Only seems a good idea at the time

However we do grow out of it, or rather we are crashed out of it, hopefully we survive to amend our stupid ways.

The biggest problem i see with bikers at the moment, and i see it at all the bke meets. It is the NEW older rider who has the capital to purchase the latest high speed mahine with no experiance.

The DFT are to somewhat responsible for allowing the direct access course.

They should restrict all riders to a 2 year power limit.

It would be funny, if it was not such a devastating result, guys in their mid forties carrying more than their share of weight sqeezed into leathers.

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Steve

Now you have reminded me of my first night driving in Munich, along Landesberger Strasse, which has trams. They are isolated from cars in some places, but for turns , there are cuts across the tracks. I made a turn across the tracks, and heard a load scrapping sound and a bell ringing. I looked out of the window and there was a tram that had just stopped in time, with the driver waving his fist at me! I backed up and let him pass, and noticed that all the passengers were all waving their fists at me as well!

It never happened again, but it is interesting to think that, in terms of vulnerability, the ratio between a tram and a car is similar to the ratio between a car and a cyclist. In a collision with a tram, a car comes off badly. In this respect, drivers in cities like Munich have to adapt to sharing the road with the heavy trams, a little like being a cyclist on Britain’s roads! Trams give car drivers a taste of their own medicine. Once you get used to them, they are quite safe, but at first, it is quite daunting.

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I stole this .sig

It was very interesting to read the views of the police officer. My views are that speed cameras are an excellent idea as an ADDITION to proper policing and an EXTRA tool for the traffic police NOT as a replacement and I would campaign for that.

To dismiss them by saying well they don't stop joyriders, idiots on motiorbikes, people who illegally and seriously fraud registration details etc... is as silly as saying we'd better get rid of traffic wardens because they don't stop serial murderers! Different tools to tackle different problems.

"As for the sorry tale in your orginal post - guy would have been pulled by me long before he got to the bend in question had I been there - and would have felt the full acid in the lecture."

Then as he is a supporter of this site and probably reading this the stage is yours.......Others may benefit too!

That seems like common sense to me too, but that rarely applies here. This is a topsy turvey place, where transport is used as an antidote to social tension, rather than to get from A to B, and speed (any speed) is no more or less risky than any other speed. I put this to the blitzkrieg of industry sponsored car shows and adverts that associate motoring with high-performance, power and force rather than as a way of getting to work, taking the kids to school and hauling stuff back from the hardware store!

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I stole this .sig

I'm not one to worry too much about the appearance of speed cameras here and there. If you fancy "pressing on" on the highways and byways, with the responsibility conveyed by higher speed firmly in your mind, you pick your spot carefully and accept the consequences if you're caught. But I have recently had a bit of correspondance with Kent & Medway partnership to see how the land lies for myself. I have to say they were courteous and responsive given my 29 year old grumpy old man demeanor (my wife has threatened to kill me if I become Victor Meldrew by my 30th birthday). They predictably sidestepped any questions over the robustness of their stats.

I particularly disappointed by one outcome however. When suggesting some more general driver improvement resources should be visible on their website I was basically told, "not our job mate".

Like it or not, speed cameras are the authorities' figureheads of road safety for the vast majority of motorists. But the key qualities and promotion of good driving are completely overlooked by this system. Should it be the role of the police? maybe, but there're pretty busy. The Council? They have a role but are not a "visible" body in the same way that a partnership is.

So what's the result? Better, more responsible driving or perpetual driver versus Authorities cat and mouse?

And here George - you have placed finger on the pulse. More and more traffic cops are being replaced by these darned things. Lancs is a case in point - where just one traffic officer is patrolling an area of 180 square miles. The state of affairs in this county as far as traffic police numbers are concerned is running at an all time low.



Again - Lancs figures sadly reflect the over indulgence in speed cams ... joyriders, pillocks who fail to adjust speed on approach to bends, born again bikers, drunks ..... all increasing because less traffic police mean less likelihood of their being pulled....

As far as overall road safety is concerned - the speed cam is about as much use as a chocolate sump plug (my wife's phrase! )

As for traffic wardens ..... are they much use for anything at all... The ones around here ..... if your tyre as puch as rests on the bay line - they fine .... and the ones in Manchester .... they have been known to ticket you whilst you are purchasing your ticket, and have ticketed a bus at a bus stop whilst picking up passengers..... ticketing a bunny in a hutch outside the pet shop .... forging a photo to get a conviction. (Guy parked his car in Bury -legally. Came back to find a ticket and when he apppealed - the courts upheld his complaint as they found the wardens had actually doctored the photographic evidence...twas in the media - along with the evidence of the photos).

If you are disabled and manage to display the badge upside down - they ticket you .....

The ones in hospital car parks .... Wonderful bunch - even consultants like me are not safe ......

Traffic wardens? Grrrr! Sadistic .....grrr!

I do have certain items in the boot - um - only for a spot of DIY Offisher - honest!

Which is another reason why their titles of "Road Safety Partnership is one sick joke!

OK - Lancs and about 10 others run "Speed Awareness Courses" - which are of very different qualities for your money. In absolute fairness to Lancashire - I would say - based on hearsay from those who have attended this course and from the blurbs in local press - their course is practical and of a reasonable standard. Of course - they do actualy teach and refer to COAST on this. (Blokes at my wife's firm have been invited to this course - we have seen their notes)



Lip service to road safety ....those who go by title of "Road Safety Partnership" clearly should be promoting this under auspices of their title. Police - again - they should give "lesser mortals" the benefit of their higher quality "intelligence" on safe driving

Also - the DSA, DfT have a role to play - driver information adverts on the telly, improved driving test, initiatives to motivate people to continue developing skills ... all of these fall under their powers to introduce...

"even consultants like me are not safe ...... "

Rather a snobbish attitude if you don't me saying. - I'm sure you do!