Safe Speed Forums

Missed the point again. The riposte on my 'handle' was quite good (the double entendre is actually rather witty) but you totally ignored the serious point I made - so your response was "not bad in the heckling stakes but otherwise.... inadequate".

You're quite good at latching on to trivial points and producing superficially persuasive argument but you either ignore or gloss over substantive issues (presumably because you don't have an adequate answer).

They used that trick in Austrian ski villages that I used to frequent. Basically, the good slopes are at the top of the valley, so all the tourists go there, while the villages between the top of the valley and the highway are cash starved. Solution: have the local coppers bag the tourists on the way to and from the resorts! So you don't need cameras to do that - just put some plods out in the snow for a couple of hours after sun up and an hour or two after dusk! My heart isn't in it, now that 317 has given up, you know? What are Ings – is it a place?



That is not a thing that you can blame on cameras. It seems that cameras have come to represent speed obsession, rather than the things they are, which are speed indicators that coppers read off-line later.



Yes indeed, many a parishioner has succumbed after receiving potently toxic drugs due to scribbled doctor's writing. In this safety obsessed culture, perhaps you should PRINT you letters out one by one? I still feel most sad that 317 has left in huff - he had fire in his belly. Perhaps he'll come zooming back over the hill at 86 mph shortly, firing in all directions.



Headless people, so that we can reap their harvest of organs without worrying about hurting their feelings!



Soon, your hands will again be covered by foul smelling excrement. Such joy.



If everybody had to agree to everything explicitly, there would be no time to agree to anything.



If we didn't limit what drugs you can prescribe, you'd have a queue right back to the lollipop.



This is not a thing to blame on cameras. Most of the speeders blame to cameras for their stress, when he real culprit is work related stress disorder, brought on by ever hard timelines, less resource and the constant pressure of lower costs. Cameras just add a little topping on this horrible cake, and that is why people here hate them. They hate the controlled, remote way they dictate the limit. But the cameras, nor the coppers, nor even the roads are to blame. The problem is that we are a stressed out bunch of celebrity obsessed TV addict workaholic wannabes, bringing up latch key kids to that we can make a house fit for celebrities to live in. I think, but do not know, that many people use their cars as a release to blow of the adrenaline they build up in their battery caged lives.



I could not have said it better myself.




I just don't get that last bit. If we are spending on cash cows, how can they be cash cows? And if they are cash cows, then we can use the cash on EDUCATION and SAFETY INITIATIVES on the telly. Can't we?

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I stole this .sig

When the cost to install and operate them is less than the revenue they generate, of course.



That'd be nice, wouldn't it. Let's see how much spare cash we've got to spend on such useful things after the lovely people at the SCPs have just finished building themselves a new HQ, outfitted said building with new office equipment, splashed out on a spangly new paint scheme for their mobile units, and installed half a dozen new cameras on that stretch of road outside Mrs Miggins' house where she swears blind that every single driver passes by doing at least 100MPH and that "something must be done"... To be fair to the SCPs, some of them do seem to be making moves in the right direction with respect to getting the message across without the use of cameras, but whether it's a lack of funding due to the crazy rules they're required to follow, or a lack of funding for such schemes due to the empire-building plans (and associated costs) of the partnership managers, or some other reasons that we can only speculate about, it's really not enough.

[cynic mode=ON]
And so long as the SCPs continue to live off the camera revenue, is there really much incentive for them to seriously try and adjust driver behaviour knowing that if they're too successful then their careers are at risk?
[cynic mode=OFF]

Thing is, they're called CAMERA Partnerships. Not Road Safety Partnerships. The clue is in the name. If improving road safety was their true goal, they'd have the freedom to use ANY method available to them to make things better - including rebuilding stretches of road to engineer out the dangers, so that cameras and reduced limits etc. would only be used as a last resort rather than as the primary safety improvement method we see at present - and their funding would not be related in any way to the number of drivers they catch out. That they're so specifically tied into the use of cameras and the revenue they generate, and the somewhat underhand ways in which they site and operate their cameras, says a lot about their actual role in improving road safety, methinks...

Let me look back over this and see what substantive issues have been raised. Do you mean the issue that the curve has flattened out? When data from over twenty years ago is omitted, the curve is less convincing. It could show that the curve started to flatten out before serious numbers of cameras were introduced, which would mean that cameras were not the culprit. Do you mean the issue that a correlation exists between 'extra deaths' and prosecutions? These graphs were rebased and scaled to fit the figures. Do you mean the issue that a 'natural speed limit' exists on all roads, to which the law should conform?

There may be something in that last issue, but I don’t think it is the same thing that you think it is. To show you what I mean, let's compare it to one of safe speed’s favourite themes, i.e. why should I be prosecuted when I am driving safely? This is another way of saying the same thing. It means 'I am driving along at a safe speed (which feels natural) yet I am being done by a speed camera, so it must be wrong. But let’s expose some of the cruft beneath this. Perhaps no-one can be sure they are a safe or good driver. Certainly, most people would recognise that it is a common deceit of inexperienced or ‘past-it’ drivers to think they are quite good, and everyone certainly distrusts people who need to declare to the world how great they are. Yet this is what you do when you say ‘I am driving along at a safe speed’. You cannot be sure of that, whoever you are, and if you can’t, neither can anyone.

Now I accept that some drivers are better than others at gauging their abilities, and that the forces of law and order can gauge this better than machines, but that is not the point here and now. The point, here and now, is that many poor to mediocre drivers will continue to populate our roads, so the system must be able to cope with the worst in human behaviour, coupled with the worst of bad luck.

OK, you might now agree with all that, yet still ask what this has to do with cameras. The answer is that the 'natural speed limit' argument is now reduced to 'I am driving along at a natural speed which could be very well be completely unsafe, because I (and no-one else for that matter) can judge! Indeed, I am a very poor judge of my own driving standards’! In the light of that, society has put some kind of margin into the system in the form of a limit, which has the unfortunate side-effect of roping us all in, good and bad. But it is worth it because it has the fortunate side effect of providing upper limits for drivers to aim below, which has other fortunate side effects, such as setting road user expectations and (to some extent) synchronising multi-lane road speeds, make acquisition and release of lanes much safer.

So, you might by now agree that speed limits are desirable; most people here do. You may now move on to discuss how to enforce them. You know my thoughts on that!

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I stole this .sig

Yes - I know that village near Innsbruck quite well - part of the Olympic runs from Seefeld/Innsbruck games.

No mate - this is village called Ings between Kendal and Windermere.



Our guy hides in the bushes in a little van around here. Chap in charge did not even know the history of the area!




That is why they gave me a lap top! Paid for by you! The taxpayer so that I could type out the prescriptions!

Anyway - my handwriting is an art form!




I have no doubt Pete will return..... I will get you to change your tune sooner or later! We have got you to call them scams and prats before now!



Do not have much problem with growing something on the back of a mouse - but heck bw - they might clone you



We will not go into where and what I had my hands in as junior!

Shall be a gent as far as new baby is concerned - and leave that to my wife to sort out Have no idea what we are expecting - she insisted on not being told on all the scans as "she likes a surprise!" I would like to know what to buy exactly! She has bought one or two unisex type babygrow thingies - in case it arrives early. Due last week in November officially - but you never know!

She has had me fetching and carrying for her all day! Go-Cat, saucers of milk.... and all she had was .... indigestion ......Grrrrrrr!



I would have liked to have been consulted first about idiot foreign nurses being foisted on me! They just arrived one morning and just look at me blankly or blush and giggle when I speak to them. Do not know why I have this effect on young wimmin!



Only the best magic mushrooms

Seriously - I am tied to some extent as to what I can prescribe. Sometimes cheapest drug works best for one bloke, whilst another needs something I am not allowed to use as it is "too expensive" False economy because the next best - does not cure as quickly - so I cost us more money in reality. In the other hand - could prescribe latest on market - and he dies on me.....



Blimey - not too far out there mate! Especially the second bit. Confess - have no idea who most of these celebs are. Nursy girls at work were full of some jungle survival thing and Big Brother - have never watched any of these and as far as I am aware none of the kittens has either.

Latch key kids - and they play chicken on M61 (aged 12) and it is all someone else's fault for not lighting up the motorway so that dirvers could see her and the Highways Agency and golf course's fault for having a fence which she could climb over......

The train surfer aged 14 (why are they always called Dean?) who lost both his legs after jumping on a moving train and falling under its wheels as note well - [i[ it picked up speed [/i] - not his fault at all! " It was the train driver's and the railways fault for not cordoning off!"

These children are old enough to realise the danger. I did at a much younger age and so did my wife. My own children are aware of danger and aware that they have responsibility for their own safety and behaviour.

Oh - I like my cars and I like driving at a fair old speed - but do restrict it to tracks and A/bahn. Not a saint - as like anyone else - will rift over a limit on occasion. And that is the danger. We all do this - even you! Certainly - volume of traffic on M6 alone means you cannot blat down it!




What I meant was - they use the fine dosh to buy more Gatsos to earn more fine money. They do not use the money on Education and Safety Initiatives on the telly - which is what they should be doing. That is what I would like to see them doing anyway.

No-one is actually saying speed limits should be abolished - but that the enforcement should return to the norm we had before the scamera - ie when we saw road deaths decreasing year on year, and had decent driver information adverts on the telly and decent levels of traffic police - which are much more of a deterrent than a speed camera! Apart from the obvious human touch - (and we are social animals which is why we respond better to people than robots) - they can judge actual safety of a manoeuvre and take the right action and line of enforcement - which PC Gatso does not and cannot!


Was not clear - as Wildy was experiencing extreme discomfort whilst I was in my study at home this morning - and we really do have to be careful.

Proper public discussion? You're kidding. M-way speed limit was set before I was born, and AFAIK no government has seriously looked at any revision (opposition have made some noise recently, but I'm not holding my breath). What about more local limits? The consultation/discussion process consists largely of sticking some A4 pages to a few lamp posts and taking out some tiny ads in the local papers. Oh, and these days it's on the local authorities website. As a result very few people are aware of a change to the limit until after its imposed. Very little in the way of public discussion. Not far from me is a single carrigeway NSL road that joins a 50mph dual carriageway (formerly an NSL dual carriageway). Barking, plus the first I heard about it was when I used it and noticed the signs had changed.

I think I know what you mean. Theoretically we'd ditch the idiots responsible for this farce come election time and replace them with... er... a slightly different bunch of idiots. Until recently they were all making similar noises, and the democratic process does stuff all when the choice comes down to the colour of the rosettes rather than the thinking behind a policy. In any event, I'd hope that people will consider other matters come election time, not just daft speed limits.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

You said this before and it's still just plain wrong. Until the camera era, there was an ongoing gentle acceleration of the improvement in the fatal accident rate (compared with the underlying exponential decay).



This has been discussed. You appear to be looking for absolute certainty. But of course no such thing exists. I'm advocating the best possible approach - and road safety already depends upon it. See this page:
http://www.safespeed.org.uk/why.html - especially the section "Deadly speed".



You're right that drivers are poor assessors of their own skills. But there are easy objective standards that can be applied. If we told drivers about simple ojective tests of their own quality then the responsible majority would have the chance to recognise thier own problems and seek improvement. What objective standards? Just a count of near misses, nasty surprises and incidents. See:

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/art.html : "Supertip - Learn from your mistakes". I'm sure you can easily see how this fundamental can be readily expanded to form an objective assessment of driver quality.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Basingwerk, I asked this on September 29th. Any chance of an answer?

[edited to fix the spelling of "Basingwerk" AGAIN! Why can't I type that right?]

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Honestly, I have nothing to do with the ‘other side’ whatsoever and it is not certainty that I crave. I'm just Joe Average, with stronger than average views on the human condition. The bottom line is that sports car brigade are no more free to speed in their fancy cars than they were in their old Morris Minors. The forces of law and order are entirely oblivious to their individual needs, and must treat every driver, good or bad, new car or old, systematically the same. This does not go down well with the 'me first' generation for reasons related to the gradual increase of greed in Britain. The place was once a manufacturing country, with rational citizens who cared enough to set up a welfare state to round off the effects of exploitation. Over the last couple of decades, all this work has been undermined to the point where the bulk of the citizens are now cynical, fear filled, jostling consumers on the conveyor belt of chaotic capitalism, so blindsided by work, advertising and the media that prioritisation has become impossible. People need to somehow offset this reduction to serf status, and what better device is there than a hire purchase option to buy an expensive, fast car? The corporations have shown them the perfect celebrity image, and status depends on it. The 'me first' driving culture of hogging the fast lane, tailgating and speeding is an artefact of this ‘progress’. People have been sold on the image of a car as status symbol, and are peeved that they are still subject to the same constraints as every other Tom, Dick and Henriette. That is the reason for the uptick, in my opinion. You are right, though. It is psychological.

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I stole this .sig

As for the rest of my story, how could care less? I'm a married software engineer, mid forties, two small kinds, two old cars in small house in the fens. I do chemistry/drugs software at work and I have to run the gauntlet of stressed out white van men to get there. Once, one crossed my path and ran into me, head on, so I guess I have an ax to grind. Sorry about that, because I've got a sharp tongue when I'm backed into a corner. Of course, I don't have answers. I just have a hunch that more cars, stress and greed on the same amount of roads means more crashes, and it's going to be a while before I switch from that view.

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I stole this .sig

For what its worth, I share that hunch but would add, more inattention to your list.

Damn! Rumbled. Have you been tracking me by satellite again?

Interesting. Do you mean that is what we have now and what we need to get away from, or that is what we have now and is the most desirable situation? IMO it's the former, though I'm not sure that was what you meant.

So a large part of the problem is that we have several million Stressed Erics that are either too distracted by modern life to drive attentively or so wound up they drive agressively? Hmmm. Yep, sounds about right. But if that's the case, is the current policy of camera carpet bombing going to solve this or add further stress and distractions?

I'm saving that for my mid-life crisis in ten years time (current car is fast, but a long way from being expensive) . Still, I'd rather people get any need for road going insanity out of their systems with a computer game rather than driving like a twat on real roads. It's probably the only way I'll be able to have a heavily modded TVR anyhow.

I sort of agree with this, though I'm not sure the car itself is the status symbol it used to be. Certain makes, yes, especially if the manufacturers like to describe them as 'marques'. But there's something like 24-25 million cars, which is about 1 car for every 2 people of driving age. Fairly common, so status symbol wise the car is hardly in the same league as a helicopter or a gin palace in Monaco. Try it out. Go into a pub and yell "I've got a car" and see if anyone looks impressed.

Still, you seem to be saying that there is a growing culture of bad driving, which in turn is being fed by the 'me first' attitudes so common in our society. I'd go along with that, though I'd go further and say that on the road it's not confined to cars or even drivers, but can be seen in all types of road user. The 64 thousand dollar question is what to do about it.

Sounds reasonable to me, but doesn't that suggest that the causes of danger on the roads are fairly complex? More complex than, say, just people exceeding a speed limit? If we all agree that there are many factors involved, how does it help to tackle a single factor or a small group of factors? And since it's a people problem, do we not really need a people solution rather than a technological one?

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

So to sum it up, BW - your strong views are politically motivated rather than motivated by road safety considerations. You just hate the current culture in the UK of individual greed (don't we all) and you think driving a car is an expression of it. Oh and driving a car above the speed limit is a further expression of the same. I understand now why we never seem to be talking about the same thing - we aren't.

More congestion definitely means more frustration and possibly means more accidents but not necessarily more severe accidents but who knows. Anyway, what strikes me is that stopping people from expressing their greed on the roads is a futile excercise - it is treating the symptoms rather than the cause (though that is often very profitable as the big pharma knows..). Human nature will be human nature, so design with it in mind. Start with providing a viable public transport system. As a johnny foreigner I can tell you they had better public transport in the USSR 15 years ago than what is available here now (but of course the soviets had no choice). The Swiss on the other hand have a choice which I experienced first hand. I had my car parked outside my flat, I was very public transport-averse after my experiences in London but I was converted in no time. It is actually cheaper in real terms, it is convenient and reliable and comfortable to go by public transport. The car becomes a luxury item, not a necessity. Coincidentally you can hire cars by the hour from many rail stations from the same people that run the trains.

Perhaps a similar set-up in the UK would really cut road deaths. It would definitely reduce congestion!
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DO NOT PANIC

I will agree with you that the human condition is deteriorating. No secret that my patch has been hitting boy racers hard just recently - and netted good pickings so to speak. Lots of chavs removed from society

And the zero tolerance will continue. Along with the acid lectures to the legal but "bit naughty" brigade!


And for the record - if they ignore the stern warning - we get really nasty a second time!

Cameras - mate - they cannot really replace us - and that is what our gaffer is out on a mission on. I am not gping to say they play no part - because used wisely - they can be a tool. But our problem is in the actual use of these gadgets. I am no PeeeCeee Plod - I say what I think - by the way. It is a free country. I enforce the law, I abide by the law - but I use common sense and fair play at all times - and by being perceived as doing so = I get the public to support and be a lot more compliant as result. But it is a tightrope of judgement day-in and day-out!



Mad Lad actually drives a Morris Minor as well as his "fancier cars". I still treat offenders the same way as I did when I first joined up - with tact, firm, friendly and fair play. I do not - and never have played the "uniform card" nor would I claim to be a better or worse driver than the Mad Doc and his wife. I will say I am not in their intellectual league - they leave me standing!

I will agree with you that the world has got greedier - with unparalleled appetite and the poor have got poorer and crave the same goodies - hence the increase in thefts. (Not all of it is to supply the next fix - some of these people acutally steal to fulfil desire to "own" )

I will agee that successive governments have messed up the economy and killed off our manufacturing legacy and that the welfare state has moved from the intended good into something ugly and unmanageable.



turning away from religion and replacing it with celeb worship? Emulating to even buying same expensive car - which David Bekham and his ilk cannot drive and flout the law as well - per recent high profile cases.

Of course we agree with you mate - status symbols and "false idols" and a general dumbing down of society. My kids A levels? Child's play compared to what I faced!

There does seem to be a reluctance to fail and over willingness to praise.

In same breath - there seems to be an attack on the middle aged law abiders who manage to indavertently ping a Gatso.

Yes, much more complex than people just exceeding the speed limit.
Yes, a people solution would be great.
Lets start by sticking a few adverts on the telly reminding people about the dangers of tailgating, how to use motorway lanes properly, how to look out for hazards etc, why you should use your indicators and loads more.

Couldn't agree more, mate, especially lane discipline (or lack thereof) and tailgating/following too close. Seems that the old 2 second rule has been largely forgotten. It winds me up so much that you never see any adverts about it that I wrote to the THINK! mob. I got a polite thankyou, an assurance that it is mentioned on the THINK! website (which very few drivers are going to visit) and is covered in a free leaflet that they do (which very few drivers will order). They said that a 2 second rule filler for TV does exist for the commercial channels to use when they have unsold airtime, which I imagine means about half three in the morning to reach an audience of a couple of hundred insomniacs, some bored night security people, and that section of the population that tend to fall asleep on the sofa in front of the telly and wake up to a blurred image Fiona and Eamonn and a revolting taste in the mouth. I feel safer already. They also said the budget was limited and is spent on Well, what a surprise. Look what was top of their list. Also, I don't recall ever seeing anything about mobile phones or drug driving. Perhaps they go out to the insomniacs and shift workers too. Not a case of maximum effort going on the bit that's easiest to enforce, I'm sure.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

I certainly agree that we have various sorts of social rot. I also tend to agree that various aspects of cars and driving tend to bring out the worst in some people.

But I don't see much in the way of change in these behaviours. If anything, I'd suggest that lane three hogging is less common now than it was in (say) the 70s.

I do think there was an increase in "social selfishness" and general materialism in the 1980s, but that didn't reflect in bad road safety results.

Do you really think that general social changes in the 90s have affected road safety? I can't recall or identify anything of the sort.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Brilliant.

I'd make the first advert: "learn from your mistakes". So many people have nearmisses or minor crashes but learn nothing from the experience.

I'd love it to be backed up with a helpline where you could phone in and ask: "what did I do wrong?". I'm not sure where we'd find the experts to answer the phone, but I'd love it if we'd just try.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I will agree with you that the human condition is deteriorating. No secret that my patch has been hitting boy racers hard just recently - and netted good pickings so to speak. Lots of chavs removed from society.(quote)


Hi, In Gear. Any chance you and your lads could pay a visit to East Cleveland? Never see a BiB from one month to the next and the chavs are running riot!

Flippin heck!
What’s happened to this thread?

Good work Basingwerk,

Bullying, sarcasm, abuse, belittling, but you can’t keep a good man down.
Especially when he’s right!!

Particularly as the authorities who have the best interests of the public at large, rather than the wishes of a few, hold the ace card.
They know the association between speed and fatacs, and will always keep the pressure on the speeder.

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Drive in haste, repent at leisure.