Safe Speed Forums

Imagine - there you are on a busy road and you hear the sirens behind you...

How do you react?

Do you adopt the "Corporal Jones" approach and slam on your brakes in frenzy of "DOANNNT PANIICKKKK!" - looking all around you in a "Fraser" like glare - muttering that "we are doomed doomed and was the doomed person who drove into as a result really too close to you as result of your emergency stop?

or do you think

"Ey up Mon - if I follow the ambulance throught the traffic jam I will make good progress and get home in time to watch "Corrie""

Or do you rubber neck when you reach the "accident site?

Or do you think that I am late for my own tea and doughnuts and just want to "speed" (Actually - IMO - this is serious emergency as I really need my choccy doughnut fix at regular intervals)

How should one react? and do we think we have been taught how to react to an emergency in any case.

And if you think an offence has been committed - what do you think I should do?

I would check to see where it is coming from and if it is coming up behind me ould pull over out of thier way as soon as i could. Safely of course.
I muppets most days sat in traffic with an Ambulance sat behind, they seem away with the faries. I did my test about 10 years ago and was never taught how to react to sirens and blue lights. Have just kinda worked out what i think is the best way.

I "give space", and indicate that I'm doing so - usually this means pulling in as far to the left as possible, indicating left and slowing slightly.

Obviously each situation needs to be judged according to the space available.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Same here, or maybe go a step further and "make space".

If the emergency vehicle is an Ambulance or Fire Engine in a big hurry I work on the basis that to them momentum is all, whereas the average car in front of them has much superior performance. Therefore if space is tight I would tend to accelerate and keep out of their way until such time as a decent enough space appears to let them go past without them having to back off and lose momentum.

Police cars are a bit different, as they (usually) do have plenty of performance available, so I would squeeze into the earliest possible gap to cause the least confusion or delay, or just ease up a bit and be "predictable" for them to overtake.

As said earlier, it is a situation that should be covered as part of learning to drive, as the number of people who react by instinctively stopping in the path of the very vehicle they are trying to assist.

_________________
CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

I think this nicely describes the approach I try to take with emergency vehicles; thank you, JT, you've said it better than I would have. I see so many people just slam on the brakes, and force ambulances and fire engines to stop and try and get round the car then 'parked' in front of them, that I try very hard not to cause similar problems.


Kaz

I'd say JT has summed it up nicely. Fisrt thing is to locate the emergency vehicle (not always easy to do) then work out how to give it space. Somtimes slow down, sometimes pull in to left but keep going, somtimes (if safe) pull in and drive onto pavement, sometimes accelerate to more space ahead.

Two recent examples I was involved in - one where my 'assistance' plan didn't quite work, the other where it did.

1. On urban dual carriageway approaching roundabout and picked up beat car about 300 yards behind in o/s lane with blues and twos. I was in n/s lane and no other traffic between us so did nothing, calculating that beat car would overtake comfortably before roundabout. Then beat car pulls into n/s lane indicating left (about 100 yard behind) so I promptly pull into o/s lane to allow BiB to pass on inside (calculating he wants to turn left at roundabout). BiB then pulls back into o/s lane and give me a flash. WTF? So I pulled back into n/s lane and eased off to allow him to pass (which he did and turned left at roundabout as expected). I think a trafpol would have read my first manoeuvre correctly and taken the inside route.

2. On same road but heading in other direction approaching traffic lights with third lane for left/forward traffic at the lights narrowing back to two lanes on the other side. I was in lane 1 approaching lights (just turned to red) with 2-3 other cars in lane 1 stationary at lights. Lanes 2 and 3 at lights empty. Lane 2 on my right has 2-3 closely spaced vehicles also approaching lights. Heard and saw trafpol with blues and twos at the previous set of lights working its way through traffic. I have choice to take lane 1 behind other traffic, or lane 2 (empty). As the road widened for the third lane, I slowed to let the vehicles behind in lane 2 come alongside and positioned to take lane 2 at the lights, thus 'forcing' the alongside vehicles into lane 3, which they duly did. Having seen that the BiB had cleared the traffic behind and was steaming up behind in lane 2, I drove over the stop line in lane 2 and pulled up in front of the lead car in lane 1 (lots of space without risk of conflicting with crossing traffic), leaving lane 2 unobstructed for BiB to sail through. Got a wave for that one.

Just as I was pulling away, I remembered there's a red light camera at this junction. Don't know whether it went off or not but never heard anything so no worries.

Having spent a week 3rd manning on Ambulances it really is bizzare to see some people's behaviour when a blue light gets close. One thing it taught me was to always keep some distance from the vehicle in front whilst in stationary traffic. That way you all still have room to manouver even in a traffic jam. Most other people don't think this sadly. Its a simple thing that I imagine causes the biggest delays in attendance times. Also many people are happy to park badly on roads if they think another car still has room to pass. Its a pain knocking on nearby doors to find the driver when your in a big vehicle trying to save a life.

Good question the right answer would depend on the precise circumstances.

In my view, depending on road layout, width, bends etc. the correct course of action would be indicate left pull over whilst maintaining a consistent speed blue and two passes and continues on it's way without having to slow down. This would be giving way to an emergency service vehicle as per the Highway Code. Where this is not possible continue at an appropriate speed until the manoeuvre described above can be accomplished.

Remember your vehicle is not the one being used for police, fire or ambulance purposes so you have no lawful excuse to exceed the speed limit as they do. Now common sense would say if safe to do so, within your own and your vehicles capabilities, increase speed even if this means exceeding the speed limit until the blue and two can take advantage of a passing opportunity. However exceed the speed limit and end up getting flashed by a camera fixed or mobile then I cannot see this being accepted as an excuse by the scameras who do not accept excuses. If you go to Court there is no guarantee that your explanation will be accepted either for the offence or in mitigation. £60 please, plus costs for daring to argue with us and have three points.

In town the situation is even more problematical. You pull into a bus lane during it's hours of operation, having indicated to tell the blue and two what you are going to do, and flash your done for driving in a bus lane. Now it is permissible to enter a bus lane if directed to do so by a police officer. However does a police vehicle with is blues and twos on class as a direction by a police officer? Would not like to argue that one. In such circumstances maintain constant speed let them undertake you and enter the bus lane but be prepared to slow down or stop once they are alongside you so that they can pull out in front of you if necessary.

Unfortunately the scameras and the police have generated such an atmosphere of miss trust among drivers that I for one would not risk my hitherto clean licence of 32 years standing for them. It will be a lot harder for them to prosecute you for failing to get out of the way of a blue and two than it would be to do you for speeding.

Not all involved with law enforcement are as honest or sensible as In Gear appears to be. Trust none of them until an individual proves different, unfortunately there is no way of telling if you are dealing with an In Gear of this world until such a situation actually arises.

Yup, remember in one of my lessons, copper wanted to get through on a narrow street. Paniced, had to be manouvered out the way by instructor. Thing is, I think it was because it was a lesson, so "cant go on the pavement" etc etc.

Now I tend to see where they are heading and move accordingly, they only ever seem to appear when I'm stuck in traffic though. Whats that about?

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uzz

Poor route planning by the emergency services?

I was travelling down the A5 from Cannock to Tamworth in a 44ton Artic yesterday, heard siren, located fire engine behind me and just kept going until I found a road on my left, indicated and pulled in and across said road, allowed the fire engine to pas and then had to drive up and over the kerb and pavement to get back on the road proper.
Having driven ambulances on blue lights, I always found it incredible how drivers could ignore the emergency vehicle, despite lights and music.

My attitude is simple, one day, that emergency vehicle could be coming to save MY life, or that of one of my loved ones, so I want to get it past me soonest and on it's way.
I don't care whether it be fire, police or ambulance, they are responding to someone in distress, a few seconds delay could cause a death other an injury becoming worse.

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Semper in excreta, nur quantitat variat.

Completely depends on the situation but the first thing is to figure out what the situation is, where the emergency vehicle is coming from and where it is going to. There may be no need to do anything but carry on as you are. Stopping at a green light could be as detrimental going through. It also depends on the vehicle. A fire engine or ambulance probably can't keep up with me if I have a clear road ahead anyway so I may speed up until I find a reasonable place to allow them to pass. A trafpol will be faster and needs a smaller gap to pass through.


Only if I am a passenger.



I have seen far too many police vehicles storming down the M62 who conveniently get told to stand down as they reach the service area. Coincidence? I think not. But then every job has it's perks. But just like you can't assume every call is a prank I don't assume every cop with blue lights on has a cuppa going cold.


Probably not, certainly not when I passed my test.

Some very reassuring points of view from all!

Of course - there ought to include an "emergency" clip in the hazard awareness part of the test. But have not seen this one appear in the data bank of "clips" yet. Anyone out there seen one?




Which is another fair enough argument against the over-reliance on the camera.
They even send NIPs to the emergency services who have to prove vehicle was indeed on emergency call. Flashing lights do not always show up that well on these photos .....and by all accounts - looking at it from point of view of so and so who looks at the photos - ....

....In all probability they see so many in one day that they get brain-dead from it. It must be quite a boring job really ......

If they would only accept some explanation from people, allow people to see the evidence and explain circumstances for investigation - - then I do not think we would be having as many arguments about the use of them.



True...sad but true .....



Cheers mate.

Th majority of us are indeed honest, hardworking and keep feet on ground and common sense in mind.

Same as the most other people.

Thankfully - our law breakers and nasty criminals form a minority of the population as a whole.

Unfortunately - they cause all the problems for us all. We do try to put them away - but ... political correctness is compromising the legal system as whole - as we all know.

I believe that we need some research into a better warning system for emergency vehicles, or at least a better siren.
Very often, especially in built-up areas where buildings reflect sounds, it's very difficult to pinpoint which direction the siren is coming from - particularly if there's a lot of other noise about. When you hear a siren you automatically look all around for lights - but sometimes these are obscured from your view by other vehicles or buildings. So, very often, people do what - to them - is the safest thing, and stop. Problem is, this isn't always the best course of action.

Regards
Peter

On a related subject, I have seen some appalling driving by emergency services drivers. One incident in particular comes to mind on the M1, where traffic was flowing freely at about 80 mph, and an ambulance comes barralling up lane 3 at about 90, then at the 1 mile marker for the next junction it suddenly brakes and cuts into lane 2 (no indicators) straight in front of me, very narrowly avoiding a corner smack.

After staying in lane 2 for a few seconds at 80, the ambulance then pulls back out into lane 3 and charges off again, before cutting back into lane 2 at the 1/2 mile marker (by this point it was a fair distance ahead of me, but it looked like another very close shave).

Then, the ambulance cuts into lane 1 then drives up the hard shoulder at quite a speed, almost taking out a car turning left onto the junction slip road.

Now I fully understand that the ambulance may have been carrying someone with life threatening injuries, but how many other people should they risk killing, just to shave possibly 1-2 minutes off the time to the hospital?

I have an interesting story about this.

Heading Eastbound into Glasgow city centre off the M8 flyover I then stopped at the first set of lights. As usual the wail of sirens in any big city is not uncommon but unknown to me it was screaming up behind the line of traffic I was at the front of. I didn't see it till the last minute when everyone else had moved over and I was stuck inbetween the crossing pavements with the lights on them so I thought I had no other choice than to go through the light. Instead of just edging forward and hard left very slowly I bombed across the junction as quick as I could, very silly, and a car was crossing this junction at the very same time (just as I shot out). All I can say is I reacted unneccessarily to the sound and lights nearly causing a smash and I'm lucky my car has the guts to take of quite quickly or I would have had that car glued to my side, take note anti-fast car mob!

Andrew

There has been resarch on a new type of siren, it was shown on the TV programme "Tomorrows World", that shows how long ago.
There are some powers preventing its use, because its too noticeable and noisy.
It was very easy by all accounts to detect which direction it was coming from as the siren itself was very directionable to the front of the emergency vehicle, about 90% of the noise went forward.
The siren included an airhorn type of noise designed to penetrate truck bodies and travel through to the driver, excellent idea.
It also didn't echo too much.

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Semper in excreta, nur quantitat variat.

I'm just old enough to remember bells on emergency vehicles being replaced by sirens. At first it was a two tone horn, then some years later the american style yelpers came along.

I always felt that it was far easier to determine the source of a bell. Perhaps it's something to do with the harmonic content, or simply because the bells were quieter and didn't echo around as far. Whatever the reason, I know for sure that it was far harder to know where the two-tone horn was coming from.

I'm less certain about differences between the two tone horn and the yelpers. I suspect it's easier to determine the source of a yelper. (Richer in harmonic content?)

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Would it not be a good idea if the route of the emergancy vehicle could somehow have all the traffic lights on it's journey changed to green by some sort of signal or global tracking showing the route and an operator determining which lights to change to avoid this at lights?

Andrew

They already do this in London, and possibly elsewhere.

_________________
CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!