Safe Speed Forums

Been perusing these forums for a few days and a thought occurred to me. I think it's fairly reasonable so please don't lynch me when I say this.

The main thrust of argument here appears to be that a particular road's speed limit does not equal its maximum safe speed. The MSS may be lower, it may be higher, and may vary depending on the time of day. Therefore, rather than enforcing speed limits without discretion, it's better to let drivers judge a safe speed according to the conditions and the distance they can see to be clear, and to concentrate more on the driving environment than on speed - after all, if he's driving at the MSS then he must have 100% concentration on the road ahead in case something happens ahead.

BUT - I would question if it's even possible to concentrate on the road ahead 100% of the time. Let's for now leave aside the irresponsible tw*ts using phones, reading maps while driving etc. We all look away from the road ahead while driving, to check the speedo, to look in the mirror, to turn on heaters, to work the radio - whatever. So that takes away some of our concentration. But even if we don't do that, is it still possible to have 100% concentration, 100% of the time? While driving, we are more likely than not thinking about where we're going or what we're going to do when we get there. We may have something troubleing us on our mind. We may see something interesting in the landscape we're passing and devote a bit of attention to looking at that. And even if we don't do any of that, then our mind will probably simply wander.

The point is that very few, if any drivers, will devote 100% concentration on the road 100% of the time. Bearing this in mind, surely one of the ways (though by no means the only way) to ensure road safety is to restrict speed (assuming limits are sensibly set, of course)?

I don't think anybody is ever going to have 100% concentration on the road at any time. The nearest you are likely to get would be flat out around a race track. Then you would concentrate very hard because you would be scared.

We all develope varying degrees of concentration at various points in our drive as and when hazards or potential hazards present themselves. And that is not necessarily related to the actual speed.

Certainly if I have a passenger I tend to drive slower as part of my concentration may be taken off the road at any point. I tend to drive slower if I am worried about something or a least aware that I am not concentrating so much on my driving.

The slower you go the more your attention is likely to wander. At 20mph for example then it is easy to get distracted by things going on outside the car. If they are hazards then good but it can take time to separate the hazard from the harmless.

Some people are very good at concentration others are not so good and should modify their driving accordingly.

But speed limits have to blanket the whole population, those good at concentration and those who are useless, so it seems unfair to the good drivers and is probably suitable for the not so good.

Sorry rambled on a bit there.

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Shooting is good for you and too good for some people.

Think of it like making beans on toast. the first time you do it, you stir the beans and watch the toast under the grill like a hawk. however after three or four attempts you leave the beans and toast 90 seconds before looking at them and then you watch them like a hawk.
The next few times you read the paper whilst you wait the 90 seconds. Disaster happens!

If there is not enough going on to occupy the human brain. The human brain will find somthing else to do.

Set the speed limit too low and attention will fall dangerously low.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

That's certainly an important fact. But it fits into the argument in two ways that you didn't mention:

a) Road safety entirely depends on driver selected speeds as being appropriate to immediate conditions. We're not by any means perfect at it, but replacing this essential behaviour with speed limit compliance alone would be literally 1,000 times worse. The scary thing is that we're moving in that direction.

b) 'Maximum' safe speed caertainly isn't a normal objective of normal good driving. It may be an objective for a police officer on emergency call. For most of us we should be looking to adjust our speed to the conditions with a goodly margin for error. One good method for doing this is discussed on: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/braking.html (see 'Safe Braking Zone')



Indeed it isn't possible to maintain such concentration for long. And we know that we don't have enough concentration or attention in the road safety system because many crashes are caused by inattention. It follows that we're working on a 'slope' - more attention / concentration on averge and crashes will go down. Less concentration / attention on average and crashes will go up. We therefore need to be especially concerned about anything that may reduce concentration or attention.

For a good overview of the arguments and the supporting data see: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/againstcameras.html

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

if you're scared driving around a racetrack then it's time to find yourself a new hobby because you've become a danger to yourself and others. It's certainly not going to help you concentrate.

I think you're both right - it's a question of degree. See http://www.safespeed.org.uk/arousal.html

The high arousal that we would hope to achieve on the track probably comes from being a little bit scared.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I'd agree it's not possible. However, in my opinion, it is also neither necessary nor desirable. Part of the art of safe driving is to ensure that concentration is always sufficient for the circumstances - including road conditions and speed of travel. We cannot hope to concentrate 100% all the time. We just need to know how much concentration is needed, and apply it, at every given time.

This view is supported by The High Performance Club, which is widely accepted as the UK's (world's?) premier advanced driving organisation - website here - whose "Driving Standards" document includes:

Of course being scared concentrates the mind. Anybody who says they don't get scared doesn't have the necessary survival instincts. And a suicidal person on the racetrack is the last thing you need.

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Shooting is good for you and too good for some people.

There's a big difference between knowing what you're doing and suicidal.
The only time I've been scared - although I'd call it nervous - on a racetrack was due to lack of experience in adverse conditions. More practice and someone else paying the bills would solve that problem. Normally I'm just thinking lines and braking points, feeling what the car is doing. If in a race looking for weaknesses in the other competitors. If I started to worry about crashing then there'd be no point even going out.

Scared on a racetrack? Try co-driving for a really quick rally driver on a mountain road, in the fog, flat out and hoping the pace notes are 100% accurate, that the driver heard you correctly and that the car is not going to break over the bumps! Ask 'JT' about that.

ok, perhaps I should have said while driving myself. I haven't been driven by a rally driver but I have done a few laps with Geoff Brabham and wasn't at all scared because I had complete faith in what he was doing. However put me in a car with the boy racer down the road and I'll probably need a change of underwear quick smart.

Been there and done that and can totally agree. Works Peugeot, Stage 2 Manx 1998, Marine drive in mist and rain. 100+ downhill. Now doing the same in the RH seat I question whether I heard to co-driver right ! But I cant think of many activities where concentration levels are higher

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewt ... centration



Um - we have discussed - do a search on "concentration" -= and you'''ll find load of stuff in archives.

Basically - if your concentrate on "concentration" - you fail . It's a bit like that Dave Allen sketch on "relaxing" - you cannot do it consciously - takes one limb to "rebel" and "thats' it....!"


and it's why I say it's like watching a film. You are relaxed - yet you follow the plot. You know what happens - and you guess the denouement - you become "involved" in the drama and empathise with the characters...

Driving in concentration mode is a lot like this - relax - drink in the "plot of the drama" as it unfolds in front of you. COAST , Risk Assess.. Limit Points and the markings on the road? The punctuation /.. narrative.. director's insttructions...

We drive with a lot of baggage .... simmering after a slight disgreement with 'er indoors. or the boss or the tasks set for you ... .. thinking about what's for tea... on the telly.... and so on...

But .. we have to lose al this and concentrate on the current drama ... savour the drive.. enjoy it... and relax into it - as this relaxed concentration (and we use it wehen we ride bikes, cycle, horse ride _) means we drink in and are as involved as we are with the characters in the play or film

It's part of our human psychology (Gestalt? Pavlov? Freud:? Darwin?) perhaps - and it is another area to discuss perhaps?

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

I dont know if others experienced this, but if you drive with ... say a bad back or a nagging painful knee, the more complex the conditions, the less you notice the pain/discomfort you were feeling.

If you push yourself adrenaline could be the answer - and maybe Cooperman and JT would like to comment, having been more involved in driving above the normal limit.

I see SCARED mentioned, and NERVOUS... I would add ANXIOUS to this list, along with EXCITED, and would like to see some discussion on the merits/drawbacks of feeling any of those.

If a driver is scared, while he/she is in control, then they are NOT in control.

Nervous is generally good - it can heighten your alertness to danger and quicken your reactions in some drivers.

Anxious is not so good - it might lead to you questioning your decisions, and slowing reaction times.

Excited comes in different forms. You might be excited at the thought of driving to a nice holiday. But excited by driving? Not good in my opinion, as it leads to over confidence and risk taking.

Over all these emotions is the blanket of just plain old bad driving skills, or inexperience, which tempers the thought chains and reactions to any of the above. As does anger or other emotions triggered by events before or during the journey. If you witness bad driving which impacts upon your driving, be concerned, instead of angry - it's safer!!

Any thoughts on this?

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

There are several keys to safe driving.
While driving along, the first has got to be observation.
Observation for me has been like learning a foreign language. To do it well requires good instruction, effort, and lots of practice and experience. After a while it becomes second nature, and doesn’t require 100% concentration. In fact, if it does require 100% concentration, then you’re still a learner. While driving conditions are ‘normal’ ( that is, hazard levels are low ) then your observation should be continually ticking away in the background, like radar. If it’s interrupted for any reason, you’ve lost valuable information and there could be serious consequences.

But good observation isn’t an end in itself. All it does is to enable you to drive within your capabilities (and the vehicle’s capabilities) in any given situation - which you can’t do if your observation isn’t up to the mark. I firmly believe that the above has enabled me to stay accident-free for over 36 years.

As far as I am concerned, the current road safety policy requires me to swap a significant chunk of my observation in favour of “artificial hazard management” - namely, continually having to look down to fine tune my speed, and to watch out for cameras and talivans. To my mind, that is sacrificing essential information which I need to drive safely, in favour of ….. what? Crap, quite frankly.
And that’s why I don’t support automated speed enforcement.

Blakey, this post reflects my views 110% and makes an excellent point very well.
I would even go as far as to say that it is this argument that fuels my enthusiasm for the SafeSpeed cause.

Hats off to Blakey... and "cheers"

Thanks for your kind comments, supertramp - much appreciated!

Fair point

But the problem with this approach is that it only tries to deal with the 'tail' of the issue. People who are inattentive within the speed limit still have crashes. In fact the vast majority of crashes do not seem to involve "excessive speed". When you constantly market the message that speeding is unsafe, many people believe that travelling within the speed limit makes the likelihood of a crash less. There is a consequent risk of attention reducing further, false senses of security, perceptions of diminished responsibility if driving "lawfully" and consequently crashes increasing, or at least not reducing.

We probably need limits, but enforcement needs to be applied more intelligently to reflect the risk at specifically that time at that place in those conditions otherwise the meaning of hazards and their avoidance is lost.

The root of this problem seems to be the misplaced attitude that road safety can be improved through raw behaviour change. But most evidence I can find seems to suggest that driving is a skill, not a behaviour.

Concentration and attention are indeed finite resources as our brains "process" their way through the task of driving. But I have yet to see any research which considers whether conforming rigidly to a set speed limit eats into those finite resources and therefore carries a safety cost greater than the perceived benefit. So whilst the debate rages around whether rigid speed enforcement works we still haven't tested whether its safe. This doesn't strike me as particularly responsible.

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"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."

For me, the take home message from this thread is that concentration (or observation) is a more important variable than speed in defining safe behavior.
Many years ago, stuck in a queue, I rolled into the back of a lorry at about 2mph whilst map-reading. Bonnet dented. Lesson learned.
But I was well within the speed limit so I guess this sort of behaviour is ok????

I would go so far as to say that lack of observation is probably the cause of well over 90% of collisions.
And if you don't see something in the road ahead because you ain't looking, you're going to hit that something at your full travelling speed.
If you are observing properly, you'll in all probability not even come close to hitting it.

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Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler