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 Post subject: Bill of Rights question
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 13:42 
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Has anyone used the 'Bill of rights' arguement against fines levied by private car park contractors( e.g. Euro car parks who monitor Sainsbury, Halfords car parks etc... ) who state on their Parking charge notices that that if payment is not recieved within 14 days the matter will be referred to a debt collection agency!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 15:05 
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I don't think it applies since the charge they make is based on contract law: if you park there, you agree to pay the charge.

The major problem I see with this type of charge is how do they prove who parked the car there? It might not be the registered keeper of the car, and they have no authority to demand the driver's details.

THe issue of debt collection agencies is a whole legal mess in itself, but I gather that if you are registered with one you can demand to have any 'entries' corrected if you dispute the accuracy of them.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 15:11 
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edbad wrote:
Has anyone used the 'Bill of rights' arguement against fines levied by private car park contractors( e.g. Euro car parks who monitor Sainsbury, Halfords car parks etc... ) who state on their Parking charge notices that that if payment is not recieved within 14 days the matter will be referred to a debt collection agency!


It doesn't apply. The 'parking charge' levied by (or on behalf of) private car park owners is founded in contract law - you are advised by a notice that a charge of £x will be made if you park your vehicle in the owner's car park (the notice is deemed to constitute an offer which a driver accepts by parking his vehicle).

By contrast, the Bill of Rights 'defence' is applies where there is a breach of regulation (parking/bus lanes), not the enforcement of a contract, so contract law doesn't enter into it. The charge in this case is a 'penalty' that is imposed as a sanction for the breach. There is no assertion that the penalty charge is a contractual obligation so the prohibition in the Bill of Rights, to the effect that no fine or forfeiture may be made before conviction, applies.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 16:33 
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Can it be deemed to be an unfair contract if the signs are put in places where nobody is likely to see them? If so could you escape payment on that basis?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 16:57 
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Zamzara wrote:
The major problem I see with this type of charge is how do they prove who parked the car there? It might not be the registered keeper of the car, and they have no authority to demand the driver's details.


That's what I've been thinking for ages. The only thing I've read about is "tort of trespass by chattels", but that would apply to the *owner* of the chattel (car) and aagin the RK is not them, and they have no legal requirement to tell the land owner/agent who that is.

Gareth


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 17:44 
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g_attrill wrote:
That's what I've been thinking for ages. The only thing I've read about is "tort of trespass by chattels", but that would apply to the *owner* of the chattel (car) and aagin the RK is not them, and they have no legal requirement to tell the land owner/agent who that is.


The problem then is they would have to prove actual loss, or get only nominal damages. I don't know if nominal damages could be as much as £20 but I doubt it would be £40.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 18:50 
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Observer wrote:
It doesn't apply. The 'parking charge' levied by (or on behalf of) private car park owners is founded in contract law - you are advised by a notice that a charge of £x will be made if you park your vehicle in the owner's car park (the notice is deemed to constitute an offer which a driver accepts by parking his vehicle).


That applies to the parking charge, but I don't think it applies to fines.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 19:19 
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Now - possibly the idea is wrong, the legalistic amongs us will no doubt advise -
As far as i am aware there is an offence of "interfering with a vehicle( possibly additions like on the highway) "(recently suggested to a PCSO on a supermarket site where vehicles were parked blocking access to HGVs that a envelope label on the windscreen with a note might be appropriate. - Reply - that is an offence - can't remember the exact words)
From this i take it that if as owner of private property ( which a supermarket car park is) i stick a label on a windscreen to remind the driver of their folly in parking in a HGV driveway , then anyone clamping or attaching a notice to your car is guilty of same offence .
Years ago , i and a colleague at work had to travel to a job.To save taking two cars , i left mine in a layby.On return a sticky label was attached by the then MOT stating that this was a "MOT LAYBY"--Took me hours to remove label and get windscreen clean

Sauce for the goose ??

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 19:23 
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botach wrote:
From this i take it that if as owner of private property ( which a supermarket car park is) i stick a label on a windscreen to remind the driver of their folly in parking in a HGV driveway , then anyone clamping or attaching a notice to your car is guilty of same offence

I don't think that it's an "offence" in quite the same way as, say, contravening the RTA... It's a long time since I read law, so my memory may be playing tricks, but I have a feeling that by doing so you would be committing the common law tort of "trespass to goods" - for which the owner could recover damages.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 21:01 
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Quote:
Interference with a Motor Vehicle, contrary to Section 9 of the Criminal Attempts Act 1981
(Wilkinsons 15.54 to 15.60)

The offence is committed when a person interferes with a motor vehicle or a trailer, or with anything carried in it, or on it with the intention that an offence specified in sub-section (ii) shall be committed by that person or some other person. The offences under sub-section (ii) are:

theft of the motor vehicle or trailer or part of it;
theft of anything carried in or on the motor vehicle or trailer;
an offence under section 12(1) of the 1968 Act, refer to Taking a Conveyance without Authority, contrary to section 12 of the 1968 Act, above in this chapter.
If it can be shown that the accused intended to commit one of those offences, it is immaterial that it cannot be shown which it was.

Motor vehicle interference is a summary only offence, which carries a penalty on conviction of imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 months and/or a fine not exceeding level 4 on the standard scale.

The elements of the offence are:
Interference
The act does not define what constitutes interference. The mere placing of a hand on a door may not be an act of interference. Putting pressure on a vehicle's door handle is an act of interference.

With a motor vehicle or trailer or anything in it or on it
With an intention to commit one of the three offences specified in sub-section (ii).
Examples when a charge of vehicle interference would be appropriate:
When the act of the accused fall short of what is required for attempted theft of the vehicle/trailer or content, for example, because they are acts merely preparatory to theft;
When the accused attempts to take a motor vehicle without the owner's consent but does not succeed;
When the accused's fingerprint or DNA is found on the interior of a vehicle that he did not have authority to enter or use.
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Charging considerations:
This offence should be charged when there is insufficient evidence to prove the full offence contrary to section 12 of the 1968 Act.
When from the available evidence the accused's intention is not clear, you should consider charging motor vehicle interference.


The offence of 'Vehicle Interference' requires evidence of an 'Intent' to committ a specific act or acts.

Placing a note, or anything on someone else's property constitutes a 'Trespass', including the people who put 'flyers' under windscreen wipers. However, for an action to succeed (and damages to be awarded) a Court would need to be satisfied that a 'wrong' had been committed. In the case of a 'flyer' it would probably take the attitude that this is a recognised form of advertising in our current society.

As regards 'clampers' they adher a notice in the view of the driver as they have a 'duty of care' to take steps to minimise of the possibility of the vehicle being moved and damage resulting.

However, if someone Superglued a notice (ignoring the fact that it is water soluble and might becomne detached in rain), or 'mechanically bonded' a notice to a windscreen to such an extent that it made the vehicle unusable without employing significant effort to remove it, then that could constitute Criminal Damage.

As for PCSO's, they give them a uniform. Stick them in a classroom for a week or so, and then they come out thinking they know it all. :roll: :roll: :roll:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 21:20 
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[quote="Grumps


As for PCSO's, they give them a uniform. Stick them in a classroom for a week or so, and then they come out thinking they know it all. :roll: :roll: :roll:[/quote]

Well - someone else who agrees about blunkets "bouncers" --well, i know our cops agree - but ?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 22:39 
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Last edited by johno1066 on Sun Feb 19, 2006 05:32, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 14:52 
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The strictly accurate facts behind my original question are based on the following; One is allowed to park free for one hour only after which time a fine is incurred, there is no facility to pay for additional time in the carpark. I was only in there for twenty minutes and on my return noticed the ticket on my windscreen. I asked the parking attendant why he had issued a ticket to which he replied that I had parked across 2 bays, even though the car park was virtually empty. He then showed me the sign which states that one must Park in marked bays only, and as far as he was concerned i had infringed the car park terms and conditions. Crazy really as sometimes you have to park across two bays if a large van is next to you just so you can get out of your car.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 18:09 
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Last edited by johno1066 on Sun Feb 19, 2006 05:32, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 04:36 
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edbad wrote:
The strictly accurate facts behind my original question are based on the following; One is allowed to park free for one hour only after which time a fine is incurred, there is no facility to pay for additional time in the carpark. I was only in there for twenty minutes and on my return noticed the ticket on my windscreen. I asked the parking attendant why he had issued a ticket to which he replied that I had parked across 2 bays, even though the car park was virtually empty. He then showed me the sign which states that one must Park in marked bays only, and as far as he was concerned i had infringed the car park terms and conditions. Crazy really as sometimes you have to park across two bays if a large van is next to you just so you can get out of your car.


If this is a privately owned car park, there's no chance this will be enforced.

Even if it can be argued that "Park in marked bays only" is a term of a 'contract' you made with the owner, it would still have to be shown that you were in breach of that contractual term and it would then have to be shown that the owner suffered loss as a result of that breach. What's the loss? The best they could show is that you prevented another car from parking but as the first hour is free anyway there's no loss that can be proved. So even if the other elements are proved, all the owner would win is the right to no damages.

(The principle that a loss is a pre-requisite to a successful claim for breach of contract is often overlooked and always worth remembering.)

It is possible that the'fine' is mentioned in some terms and conditions that you could be deemed to have accepted. However, if the 'fine' is a charge payable as a result of breach (overstaying time or parking outside marked bay), I don't see how they would get around the rule on penalties (a contractual "penalty" is a sum which is expressed to become due upon a breach of contract which places the person entitled to it in a better position than he would have been if the contract was properly performed - and a contractual penalty is unenforceable).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:50 
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thank you Observer for your very well reasoned argument, the concern is
in the last sentence of the original post which states that if payment is not recieved within 14 days the matter will be referred to a debt collection agency ( Baillifs i presume)- how does one deal with that scenario then?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 13:11 
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Observer wrote:
..it would still have to be shown that you were in breach of that contractual term and it would then have to be shown that the owner suffered loss as a result of that breach. What's the loss? The best they could show is that you prevented another car from parking but as the first hour is free anyway there's no loss that can be proved. So even if the other elements are proved, all the owner would win is the right to no damages.


I disagree with your interpretaion here.

The contract is that you agree to pay £40 if you park in a certain manner (longer than an hour etc.) The breach of this contract is when you fail to pay the £40. Therefore the loss to them is £40.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 13:19 
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Of course, there is a further issue, and one I have not thought of before.

If the parking 'service' company is one of the big ones, it would be reasonable to assume that the contract is one where 'one party acts as consumer' (ie, you).

This means that all sorts of statutory rights come into play, involving reasonableness, unfair terms, and the like.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 13:34 
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Last edited by johno1066 on Sun Feb 19, 2006 05:33, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 21:06 
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Out doing the Christmas shopping with the wife,as one does, was sitting in the car in one of the supper store car parks when I observed an individual in a dayglow coat walking around recording vehicle registration numbers. When she had noted mine into a hand held device I got out and asked her to identify herself and state why she had recorded my vehicle registration number. Her reply to the first question was to point to the name of the company on the coat and to respond with the reply it is to ensure that you do not stay longer than the permitted time if you do we trace you and send a penalty. She was not at all keen to enter into further conversation and certainly did not appear well trained or versed in law so I left it at that.

The only way these people could enforce their penaltys is via the civil courts having obtain judgement in their favour.


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