Safe Speed Forums

Oooh, be careful Wild. A nasty story doing the rounds recently suggested that gang initiations in the North West involved driving around with no headlights on. When the first driver flashes their headlights the initiatee gives chase and fires three shots into the car

If you want to call me a brigand, come out and say it, man!

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Hm.. I wondered why my ears are going red and blistered - do you believe in the supernatural, JT?

It's more than that, though. When you look at the way road systems evolve, one pattern that comes over is that development tries to take the line of least resistance.

If you want the system to change, one way to bring pressure is to ignore the rules of the system. This is the “vigilante” method, much loved by safe (?) speeders.

Another way to bring pressure for change is to do the diametric opposite (!) and stick more rigidly within the rules of the system, avoiding compensation for faults where possible (and safe). That way, administrators are able to observe and gauge system behaviour, and engineer new rules to systematically address faults.

Of course, the real way is to give and take a little from both pressures for change. I sense little appetite for obedience to public rules here, though.

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The momentary lights off method is a non-starter for me, since my 407 won't let me turn the lights off in the dark unless I turn the engine off and wait 15 seconds.

I use the indicator wobble, since that seems to be generally understood.

And of course, one method by which the administrators can judge the effectiveness of a policy is by how many people obey it. In other words, whether it gains the respect of the populace. So the "vigilante" approach is actually a perfectly valid component of the "rigid observance" method.

What is really wanted is sense, good judgement, and discretion. The "rigid enforcement" approach simply becomes ever more farcical the more you try to follow it. How would you legislate for people travelling down the lane to our village for instance? Parts of it are wide, parts narrow, who gives way in law?

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

Motorists should show sense, good judgement, and discretion if they expect to receive it. If they receive less of it, perhaps it means they do not show enough of it?

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Y'know BW, I've tried very hard in the past to see where you are coming from when you post here. But in this case I give up. Its quite clear that, regardless of what the initial discussion was about, your argument ALWAYS resolves down to the same basic mantra...obey the law or be damned.
So, from showing courtesy on the roads we're get to largely unconnected vigilante drivers and pressures to change the system in X easy steps by Basingwerk.

Well, it’s not my mantra – the law of the law is that is must be obeyed. If it is not necessary to obey it, it is not the law, but something else, I’m afraid.



No. The route basically was -

a) I said there is no agreed way to communicate ‘thanks’, it may be a risk if you mis-communicate it, and it is a waste of time anyway, because people should drive in good faith as a matter of course.
b) JT then said that it is essential that drivers give way over and above what the rules of the road dictate.
c) And I replied that, rather than make up rules, obey them and they will be changed if or when they fail.

In essence, there is no requirement at all to say thanks, except for those who are engaged with social niceties rather than getting on with the job.

We should KNOW that people are in good faith, because that is the minimum baseline for driving.

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Whilst I appreciate that good driving includes being courteous to other drivers, especially if they have assisted you in some way, there are times when it is not possible or safe to thank someone for their efforts whilst driving.

I normally give a left hand wave, but at night this probably won't be seen so I don't bother. It's not that I don't appreciate the courtesy shown but that there isn't any unambiguous and safe way to show my thanks.

Not too keen on the switching lights off method, mainly because it could cause serious problems if you couldn't switch them on immediately afterwards. Say the car hits a bump and your hand contact with the switch, it's then dark and you have to find the headlight switch and avoid driving off the road or hitting other traffic.

Forgot to add, an indicator 'wobble' doesn't work on my car as it too automatically does 3 blinks of the indicators when you 'blip' the switch.

Until reading this thread I asumed that people doing an "indicator wobble" did it by mistake because they were angry and threw the stick too far when canceling the indication to the left, twice. So I always overtook them very carefully....

Really you want another switch to flash the reversing light/s

I don't ever remember a driver slowing down or in some way helping me to overtake them when on a single carageway road in the dark. On the rare occasions I am able to overtake in this situation, they usually speed up.

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Andrew.

When no protocol is agreed, it can't work in a reliable way.

It is still heavy work getting such an obvious point across. So thanks to Ziltro (even though he doesn't expect any!)

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There's no protocol agreed for what to do when you're intended path along a pavement conflicts with another pedestrian, yet we are surprisingly good at resolving such issues in a reliable and non-confrontational way.

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

Yeah – listen, I don’t mind if they wave, toot their horns, flash their head-lights or flip me the bird, do a wheel spin or even waggle their windscreen wipers – if I don’t know what they’re prattling on about, they are wasting time.

On the other hand, JT, I wish I knew where to get a big red sign like this one so that I could tell tailgaters where to go.

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Must be in those horrid inner city areas. Mad Doc was told by pal not to tootle horn for anything down in Wythenshawe area... Some horrid people around for sure..

I usually find the "drive in the dark" dipsticks - just set off from supermarket carpark or from offices. Always amaze me that they do not notice they cannot see what ist ahead of them though und need a kind driver to remind.

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Then you are not very observant on road if you cannot read gesture und interpret meaning. If I assist overtake und person gives some indicator wobble, hazard flash or just flicks lights for fraction of second or give thumb up ....or even just a smile if letting out of junction or into lane - ist easy to interpret what the mean.

I am sure you are more than well acqauinted mit the coffee bean sign though From what you write sometime - suspect you are more au fait with this one than the courtesy one - which could explain why you appear to have the little problem with the communication!

Interpreting intention ist part of COAST (C - for courstesy/consideration und A for attitude also within normal Concetrate, Observe, Anticipate, und allow the Space and Time in t you Plan)



Have already told you - look at your driving to see why you get tailgated. If you are at 30 mph in 30 mph road - sit no excuse for the bad behaviour. So you assist an overtake if you can. Ist good manners und his licence if talivan or trap ahead - not yours! You pull into lay-by und let him pass. You create a spce for him to move into as well. You turn off through the garage forecourt or into side street of once more around the roundabout if a right twazak!


If there ist speed cam ahead which get him on the accelerate - all the better as ist putting to good use even though it mean feeding the scammerchant.

If you are driving well below the speed limit - ist then inconsiderate driving on your part if no reason for it. Driving at speed limit (margin of 10%=/- or so) - that ist good manners on road. Deliberate drive of 5-10 mph below speed limit - inconsiderate driving charge could await you! So you speed up to acceptable und he ceases to be up your bumper.

There - ist simple - nucht? Drive according to a COAST rule Liebchen - it keep you more or less compliant - but most importanly - it keep you as safe as you can be.


Numpty men - far worse than mumpties in 4x4s mutter mutter mutter

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

I use a mixture of hazard single flash & the usual left/right in normal conditions. Or a reply to the 'proceed' full beam flash with the same & a raised hand as a thanks (day) / flash front fogs at night. (less blinding!).

The rural laws seem to differ somwhat from cities, the friendly tractor indicating left on that long straight to allow you to overtake with the knowledge he's seen you, follwed by my L/R flash when passed.

There is also a gender gap as respects driver courtesy.
(Dons fire proof suit), in GENERAL, proportionaly more males will thank you than females. (Try your own survey, & form your own conclusions.) My wife notices this more than I do, so it's not just me. Maybe it boils down to more men actually enjoying the driving experience & being relaxed behind the wheel? Dunno.

You should go to more track days Liebchen - think you'll find right gaggle of wimmin there.

Und I enjoy my driving very much. Und I always give a friendly smile - as I cheek my way into the queue! You usually get a kiss blown to you too - if safe to do so as I edge into the queue from the T- junction/ Give Way - Halt lined. Und I always allow a zip merger und smile. Men just give a grumpy nod!

But ist true - we country bumkkins are a lot more refined than townie. Mumpties in 4x4 s are probably the worst - I would agree they do tend to run to stereotype.

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

<Checks Snopes> Er, probably not then.

Going back to what is and isn't a good idea as a thank-you message, yes, killing the headlamps for a moment is probably less than ideal for anything with pop-up headlights or in any car where the light controls aren't at your fingertips and easy to use. I don't have a problem in my Honda since the light switch is a rotating knob on the end of the indicator stalk. I just twist it a notch and twist it back again. It takes a longer to read that last sentence out than it does to actually do it, and since I don't kill all lights it's going to be barely noticable to anyone behind me. I don't do it in Mrs Gatsobait's car since although the stalks are exactly the same they're the wrong way round, and squirting water on the windscreen doesn't send much of a thank-you message. Nor would I want to do this in the Vauxhall I had before, since the light switch was a twisty dial job on the dash below and to the right of the instruments. Nearly at arms reach in other words. I suppose what you chose to do is going to be influenced by how the maker of your car laid the controls out, and at the end of the day I think it really doesn't matter too much what you do so long as it's safe and understood to mean "thanks mate".

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Definately a single hazard flash for me, simple and effective. I've tried the wobble approach and really don't like it.

In response to Basingwerk who says there should be no need to thank people then your right, it's not essestial, but it's just good manners to do so. When I go to the shop I expect the cashier to deal with the transaction in a couteous and polite manner as that's what they are paid to do, but I still thank them. When I go to the pub, I expect the same from the barmen. When I go for a meal, I expect it from the waiters and waitresses. I will still ALWAYS thank them. It's just polite.

You know when you let people out a junction, or whatever, and they give you a cheery wave - it makes you feel good, doesn't it?

That's one of the things I like about bikers. You make room for them to pass safely and 9 out of 10 will give a quick thank-you wave or as they pass. Truckers seem to have a similar attitude to thanking other road users as bikers. Why do school run mummies find it so difficult, or is it just me?

I think showing a little courtesy is worth it just for the warm fuzzy. Personally a thank-you gesture from a total stranger has been known to cheer me up on an otherwise utterly shitty day, so I always try to say thanks in case it does the same thing for the driver who's just let me out.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein