Safe Speed Forums

First of all I'd better point out that this is not strictly my idea, I read about it some time ago in a motoring magazine, but I thought I would offer it as a topic to see whether other people think its a worthwile idea or not. Some details I may have unintentially altered but the principle is the same.

Basically the proposal was that on heavily used junctions(particulaly in cities) there should be no priority and no road markings. Everyone would therefore have to slow to a crawl and then cross if safe. The advantages of this is that there would be no 'dead time' which at some junctions can be very long indeed. Also, since nobody has priority, everyone has to slow down - therefore you don't get the usual waiting for a safe gap that you get at ordianry junctions. Thanks to the low speeds right turning traffic has more opportunity to cross.

At first I was very sceptical about it, but the more I think about it the more I could see it potentially working. Apparenty it has been implemented in Holland and cuts delays dramatically. Ok so you have to slow down significantly, and take your time crossing as you will need to look in all directions. But so is everyone else, which means everyone is looking out for one another.

Personally I think this deserves some thought and research. I don't forsee it being widespread, but if it was well signed and people knew how to negotiate them then I think it has potential. Yes the idea of unmarked junctions at rush hour alarmed me at first, but since everyone has to slow down its perhaps not as worrying as first thought. It got me thinking when I look at how long we spend queing for traffic lights when nobody is crossing the junction at all.

Any thoughts?

Well in France they seem to have traffic light junctions which all sit on flashing amber at non-busy times, which is a good idea but the opposite of what you are talking about...

In america they have a thing called a 4-way stop... some not very exciting pictures here: (badly designed web site too)

Piccies

Here's some Q&As about them:

Q&A

And this is one person's view on how they work in reality:

Article

The rules seem similar to that of a roundabout, but I can't work out which direction priority goes in!

Anyway, this seems similar to your idea, but it has rules of priority. Maybe it's worth looking at

_________________
Andrew.

The failure of traffic lights give the sort of situation you describe. And yes, I can confirm that it can work for some junctions. How? Well they recently removed a set of traffic lights in Inverness because traffic flow was much improved during a period when the lights were faulty...

I guess we need to start turning traffic lights off and observe the effects...

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

If I never see another 4-way stop it will be too soon.
South Africa is full of the damned things - in a lot of areas they have one at every single intersection. And you get queues of cars in all directions while those at the stop sit looking at each other trying to figure out who goes first - until they all go together
And then you get the cops hiding in the bushes, nicking all the cars that don't come to a complete and utter stop. (0.005mph will get you nicked)
Not only that, they're dangerous as well. There have been many horrendous crashes because people are so used to 4-way stops that when they arrive at a 2-way stop and see a car coming along they assume it's going to stop - and then get T-boned at a high speed.

Cheers
Peter

_________________
Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

I've tried googling for the results of the trial in Holland but the search was fruitless. I do remember however that it was hailed a success and slashed journey times. I think that there is a difference when compared to 4-way stops as they appear to have rules of priority. In the trial no-one had anymore of a right of way then anyone else, even if approaching from the right. Also, from memory I think you were entitled to encroach as much as you liked into the junction, albeit very slowly. This would therefore stop queues forming when someone stops at the line(of course in the trial there were no lines at all). They also blurred the distinction between road and pavement(hmmm not sure about that one).

The advantage I see in everybody encroahing on the junction is that everyone is ready to go, you don't get the dead time between the lights going red on one side and people getting ready to go on green on the other side. Also because everyone is going slowly it only takes a tiny gap and your gone, and if anyone makes an error you can stop very quickly. The only danger I see is that some drivers may follow the driver in front, at a higher speed and not looking because they assume everyone will have stopped for the driver in front of them. Perhaps the fear that someone else could have done that in the other direction may stop that?

As Paul mentioned, it's sometimes the traffic lights themselves that cause the delays. Ive heard a few times on the radio travel reports that "Callers have reported traffic flowing the best its ever done after the failure of the traffic lights on x street". As a similiar case we have a village(on a through route) near us that had a traffic light controlled T-juction, and it was always very congested at rush hour. During some roadworks they temporarily installed a mini-roundabout and the traffic literally disappeared overnight! Unfortunatly despite campaigns from local residents they re-installed the traffic lights and just as quick as the traffic dissapeared it came back again. It seems to me traffic lights are being chosen above any other type of junction and perhaps we should think about alternatives? Mini-roundabouts(or full ones if space) are one alternative, but I just wondered wether unmarked junctions should have a trial.

I think this is only likely to work at junctions where the traffic flow is fairly similar in all directions.

However, if there is a crossroads where one road has ten times the flow of the other, that road will in effect "colonise" the junction and become the main road, despite the lack of priority markings.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Yeah that thought did cross my mind and your right, thats why I dont think they would be ideal for every junction. However i can think of quite a few junctions on my way to work in Manchester that seem to have the same traffic flow and no obvious main road. Plus those junctions that do have a fairly obvious main road with the majority of the traffic tend to have a much longer green phase so don't cause big jams. I think the jams are being made worse as some traffic light sets no longer have just a North-South and East-West phase(with perhaps a filter) but have individual phases for each road.

They're not going to trial something like that in this country because they don't care about journey times, they pretend to of course so they can get away with KENgestion taxes and similar, but they don't really. Besides, why would they do anything for the motorist that doesn't make money?

_________________
www.clubrwd.com - For all things rear wheel drive

I agree. I drive in the US. 4 way stops are daft. You can aproach a junction at 40-50. Nothing comming in any direction. You still have to grind to a halt and stop.

If you are ona a motorcycle you have to put both feet on the ground.

Its a pain when you get 4 or 5 in a row.

_________________
Speed camera policy Kills

But isn't the suggestion really a 4-way give-way? Not an strictly enforced 4-way stop. The flashing amber idea (proceed with caution) would also be a huge improvement in the UK - nothing is more annoying than being the only one on the road at 4am, and having to stop at 6 red lights in a row for no reason.

Personally I think that the first thing that should be implemented is "Left Turn on Red", with a sign telling drivers when this is prohibited (just like in the US). This should be launched with a TV/Radio/Paper campaign educating both road users and pedestrians, but I doubt that even this idea will be implemented because HSE (Hysterically Smother Everything?) wouldn't like the potential clash between pedestrian and cars.

TBH, I disagree with the turn left on red idea, I think it would confuse too many and as so many have pedestrian crossings, it would probably be half and half.

Having more traffic lights that recognise a car is approaching and if its clear it gives them the green light is the best way for empty road situations and flow of traffic situations.

_________________
www.clubrwd.com - For all things rear wheel drive

In the US they have a "not turn on red" sign above those junctions or a crossing where pedestrians have right of way.

I drive/ride about 10K milea a year in the US...the turn on red system works great.

Its just the 4 way stop that drives me crazy.....but then they don't have roundabouts (well hardly any). A 4way give way would be better.

_________________
Speed camera policy Kills

Why can' t we abolish 4 way junctions and just have roundabouts instead?

I think it's for reasons of space and cost. Installing a normal roundabout(as opposed to a mini) requires additional space, and often this space is unavailable, or if it is, the cost is often prohibative. Mini-roundabouts don't have this problem, but I guess they are deemed unsuitable for anything other then smaller urban roads.

Some junctions however would suit roundabouts, and I think there should be more of them, rather then simply sticking up a set of traffic lights. One notable exceptption is in Colne where at the junction of Windsor Steet and Skipton Road they took the traffic lights away and installed a roundabout. Now there are no queues! Great stuff.

Talking about Colne, I came off the M65 and due to the Blues festival closing the main road through town, I expected North Valley road to be backed up right to the motorway(as it was yesterday), as if anyone knows this road then you will know how congested it is at the best of times! Anyway, the traffic lights with the first junction were out and there was NO traffic jam at all, compared with 10 min queues the day before. As Peter predicted, the main road did colonize the junction, but there were only 1 car waiting at one side road and 2 at the other side. They should leave them switched off!

Thats the new economy in South Africa - Imported from the north ,like Zimbo.

Things like at about 14 days before payday , the roadblocks go up - "Bwana, I want to check your Land Rover handbrake - " - "Certainly officer , stand back, puts handbrake on, starts engine, lifts clutch -engine stalls - " "Bwana , i need to push it" - "ok push" ,one hour later gives up.

Now those that know Africa might appreciate this joke.

Sgt to troops on roadblock duty" stop search everywhere"
At road block, couple arrive, car is searched, and couple is told "take off your shoes".
Van gets home abd phnes up hi mate the inspector"Got a weird one today "he says"got told to take of my shoes".
Inspector says "funny", and phones Sgt at post."Why did they ask to check shoes" says inspector
"Don't know " says Sgt, "last thing i said was
check the boots"


But as Pete 317 says - thats Africa