Safe Speed Forums

sorry

I assume you're creating an analogy here. Ok - let's follow it through.

If you've never swum there before, you'd be ill-advised to stray outside the red flag zone, no matter how crowded it may be between them.

However, if you've been there zilions of times, know the undercurrents well, can gauge your capabilites for the conditions, and for some reason (overcrowded?) there is a good reason to stray beyond the red flag by a few yards, AND (this is important) to do so will not encourage less competent folk than yourself from doing the same, go ahead with alacrity.


Speed limits are invaluable to alert good drivers in strange (to them) locations of changes in hazard density.

no

If the beacj is your habitat you would be able to assess the danger for your self and decide how to react.

Red Flags mean different things depending on location, from dangerous currents to the edge of the lifeguard patrol areas.

As a former surfer I would use the dangerous rip currents to get out to the back of the breakers rather than trying to batter my way through the breakers. should I as an experienced surfer be banned from doing so because of a red flag?

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Former Military Police Officer and accident investigator

Nice one cam-op I think the answer lies in the level of trust you have in those that have set the restriction and whether personal experience or knowledge has influenced it. Taking your example, what if the sea that day was like a mill pond and that you knew the area well enough to know that there were no rips? But you did specify lack of knowledge, so let's look at other things. Beach lifeguards are unlikely to have an interest in making such a restriction for any reason other than a genuine safety need and can probably be trusted to be experts on when and where it's really necessary. In that respect it's not a good analogy for speed limits which can be set by local councils against the advice of experts and for purely political reasons, and (not that I'm having a pop at you) are enforced by partnerships who have a financial interest. Nor are beach lifeguards likely to suffer from the same sort of inertia as governments and councils, and leave the restriction in place long after it ceased to be necessary.

More to the point, restrictions should never take the place of our responsibility for our own safety and our own judgement. Basically, do the red flags indicate the rest of the beach is safe? Obviously not - you can still drown there. Whether you know the beach or not you still have to exercise judgement about swimming in the unrestricted area, so regardless of your ability, knowledge of it, the conditions in the area, and lack of prior knowledge about that, it's still necessary to constantly evaluate the situation so that you know when to get out of the water. In that respect it's a bit like driving and treating the limit as a guide.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

If speed limits (and warning triangles and the like) were used judiciously and frugally, people would take note of them and act upon them.

As it is, while PC prats stand around crying wolf, people will ignore signs superfluous to making progress. Until and unless this changes, nothing will happen.

Another point worth raising is that the flags on beaches are altered to suit conditions and there are life gaurds monitoring the ever changing situation.

hmm whats with the title of this topic ?

as a 'good' swimmer... i've contacted the local life-gaurds in advance a received advice on where to swim. i also approach the life gaurds there and ask about tides & specific hazards before letting them know what i plan on doing and going ahead. i also wear a bright coloured swim hat.

fit that in your analogy

The huge difference between the red flags example and speed limits, is that drivers expect to work (at least) as close to the 'red flag line' as conditions allow. They spend years acquainting themselves with conditions up to and beyond the red flag line. They soon learn that the red flags are ALWAYS in the wrong place and they will have to use their judgement to survive.

(When I say ALWAYS in the wrong place, I'm not kidding. The only time the speed limit equals the safe speed is when the safe speed (which varies constantly) transitions across the speed limit. A bit like the clock that's stopped - well it's right twice a day isn't it?)

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Its a moot point , and I'm sure I'll be accused of splitting hairs here ,but as an ex-lifeguard I feel its my responsibility to point out that you should only swim between red and yellow flags in the UK.

Red flags mean don't enter the water at all .

Like I said , splitting hairs , or perhaps highlighting the need for further education.

ok

Fair posting CO, but as has been said, its not a great analogy and one that doesnt help your cause anyway.

Cameras dont care if you are a local with good knowledge of the road, in fact they will obviously become a hinderance to those who do know it even more.

As for unknown territiry, such as me driving to Manchester and back, the most prevallent hazard I am liklely to come across are if fact ca,meras, as I wont know where they are, and more importantly, I'm more likely to fall fould of a ridiculous speed limit in the process.

Jules

CO – I think generally across the UK population you will find great respect for law that is respectful, it really is as simple as that. The law (i.e. those who prosecute) used to apply road law very respectively and KSI’s fell year on year , year after year, then someone saw what a great money making scheme it was, it was enforced with disrespect and became disrespectable and people ignored it. As a consequence KSI’s rose. Bit of a shame really isn’t it? Do you really encourage this form of “road safety” i.e. the KSI increasing bit?

If you do ignore the red flags, you may find a diver hiding in a rock pool who will photograph you and send you a fine !!!

(Sorry, couldn't resist that one....)

If you're after good advice, go to www.mcga.gov.uk/seasmart.

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Never point a speedmeter at a civil or military aircraft, vessel or armoured vehicle. Many military aircraft, vehicles or vessels have target acquisition detectors, some of which initiate automatic counter measures.
Association of Chief Police Officers

Or ther's always

http://www.rospa.com/waterandleisuresaf ... /flags.htm

the flags only apply to young people?

Think you would find all good swimmers would be acquainted with a red flag.

Similarly a good COAST or experienced driver would be able to read the road and percieve the hazards regardless of where he or she was!

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Quite right though, that's what we should all be aiming for. Unfortunately too many drivers just seem to proceed on an automatic pilot basis.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Hmmm.





Might be better than having them on the roads.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

excellent