Safe Speed Forums

Additions to my last post...

Firstly - a small change in the quality of the average drivers' safe speed behaviour will be reflected directly in the accident stats.

Secondly - Safe speed bahaviour is expressed as always being able to stop within the distance that we know to be clear. It follows that:

Every time we stop for a road hazard we have proved that we were able to stop within the distance that we knew to be clear.

And what is the ratio of "successful stops for hazards" to accidents?

It must be absolutely massive. 10,000:1? 100,000:1? Let's guesstimate:

If the average driver goes 7 years between damage only accidents, we might guess that that's 1,500 driving days, with 20 successful stops for hazards each day, we immediately get 30,000:1. But was the crash failing to stop in time for a hazard? 50/50? so that's 60,000:1.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

NO... that is not my rationale !

I see these safe MAXIMUM speeds as a guide to the speed that should be considered under average road conditions. The experts that work out what these speeds should be are saying that if you do go OVER this set speed you will be removing most of the adaptations that you may be able to make driving at UNDER that speed. If you go over that speed you are then suggesting that you disagree with the fixed limit and that YOU can interpret the safe speed within your own head and to fit within your own skills. HERE...is the offence !

The traffic engineers and the lawmakers are saying to you that under average conditions the speed shown is the MAXIMUM speed that you - or the average driver - can navigate those road conditions reasonable safely, and by setting a maximum they are allowing you to then use your skills, ( or lack of them ), to decide how you should drive UNDER that maximum. Not at any time are they saying that because you think you are a good driver that you should be able to IGNORE these limits and apply your self-measured skills over that set speed limit.

It seems to me to be clear that sites like this are ALL ABOUT exactly what I have stated above. They are here to rationalise speed limits away and to indulge themselves in cosy back-slapping sessions as they re-enforce their self-congratulatory stance that they are BETTER than the experts that set these limits !

Mind you, this is NOT surprising as most elitists will - if sitting in a roomful of other elitists - find fault with what they might say is an inferior set of standards that they are raised far above in their feelings of superiority.

This state of mind - in official circles - is called, a "superiority complex" !

Who would want to be one of them ?....NOT ME !

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Regards

Papaumau

http://www.rip-off.co.uk/index1.htm
http://www.network54.com/hide/forum/100558

That's not really the point I was making. In the real World, adherence to speed limits is being preached as THE major issue in road safety, and it clearly isn't.

More and more people are coming to believe that if they aren't speeding then they must be driving safely. That and distraction are the two major issues that overly emphasised speed enforcement is leading to, and that is what is causing the failure of our fatality rate to continue its previous downward trend, in my opinion.

It's not about speeding, per se, its about people who drive less safely whilst obeying the limit!

Unfortunately, speed limits are no longer being determined by "experts". They are decided in town and county halls by councillors on highways authorities, and increasingly have a "political" flavour to them. Think about this when you're next on a nice wide straight road with no houses or other hazards, but confined to a 50mph, or worse, 40mph limit, quite possibly enforced by a camera. You will feel like you are crawling because the speed is inappropriate for the conditions.

The sooner speed limit setting is returned to real experts, the better. Or perhaps we need to ensure that members of highways committees are properly trained for their role.

Papaumau, what about where speed limits have been arbitrarily reduced without reason? Such as NSL dual carriageways that have good records under normal circumstances being reduced to 60, or even 50mph. What is the message they are sending out? The speed limit has been inappropriate for decades? Pardon my french, but crap. The result is that people who used to respect the limit and can see no reason for it's reduction are now speeding, and some are going faster now that they believe the limits are set by idiots than they used to when they believed they were set sensibly. Howdoes that benefit road safety?

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

CJB & Gatsobait.....



I think that this phrase put's it all in a nutshell !

As I have already said - to the Nth degree - It cannot be the driver who decides what speed is "appropriate for the conditions" and if this is accepted then the speed limits must be accepted too as the guide for everybody to adhere to.

If a particular speedlimit is obviously set wrongly then the locals can change it by pressure on the authorities. I know of at least two in my area where speed limit signs have been moved or added to or reduced because the community-councils have requested that this should be done.

This is the ONLY way that a speed limit can be interpreted as flawed and the ONLY way that it can be adapted to suit the conditions. Each individual driver is not in a position to be skilled enough to ignore these limits and superimpose his or her own just because he or she disagrees with them.

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Regards

Papaumau

http://www.rip-off.co.uk/index1.htm
http://www.network54.com/hide/forum/100558

That is not answering my question. I am refering to sites where NSL has been in place for many years and has been demonstrably safe (i.e. the road has a good record). The general conditions have not changed. How can that limit suddenly become inappropriate overnight? Or, if it had been wrong for all those years, why did the road have a good record? Maybe they're simply trying to set a new land speed record for moving goalposts.
Now you're answering my question.
Well, I'm delighted for you. However, it doesn't fill me with faith that all local authorities are easily persuaded. I understand the usual practice in my neck of the words is to either ignore letters or to respond with a form letter along the lines of "Dear sir, Any objections to the new limit should have been raised before hand. There was ample opportunity to do so. Blah blah blah, burn off. Regards." Of course, almost no one actually finds out about the new limits until the signs go up, since the form of notification usually consists of a few sheets of close typed A4 taped to some lamposts (like we can read that from the road at any speed) and a tiny notice in the local press (useless for those who are not locals yet use the road regularly as part of their commute).
For many perhaps not, but the reality is that they have, they do, and they will continue to do so. Sadly you cannot change human behaviour with legislation unless the legislation actually makes sense (sometimes not even then - America's attempt at prohibition made a certain amount of sense but was an abject failure all the same). far better to increase the standard of driving across the board by better initial training, incentives to take advanced training, remedial training for offenders, and repeated re-testing every few years for all drivers.
Papaumau, you and I have already agreed (shock horror ) on another thread that motorists tax contributions are outrageously high given the investment we get back. How would you feel about some of that £46 billion or so going into measures that increase the standard of driving across the board, in return for which we get sensible speed limits set by real engineers in accordance with the 85th percentile, rather than local political wanabees in accordance with government orthodoxy? It's only speculation, but I'd expect wider compliance with limits than we've ever seen, a return to falling accident rates, and more courtesy on the roads all leading to a safer and more pleasurable drive.

Well, I can dream can't I?

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

papaumau, u got that one wrong .. cjb/gatso bait are quite correct. More importantly, some speed limits were set before advances in engineering by both the road makers and the car makers.
Likewise the 70 mph was set at the time of the oil crisis, and solely to save fuel, it's long past it's sell by date.

Lets not forget many speed limits are set, for example on the roads leaving london , to avoid congestion on the m25 around london. They need to think this one thru, and perhaps build some new roads instead of giving into Mr swampy, who was on the dole, and not making any usefull financial contribution at the time of his fame. We paid for the roads, we
have paid for the next lot of roads, let's have them and do away with the artificially low speed limits !

hey ho the debate continues.. back to that letter writing..Dont forget it chaps

rgds
bill

The original "bad lad" (and in case you are wondering - had great time making WildyCat grovel Have changed my computer access code yet again - She won't crack it this time! )




Huh? Agreement to extent? You are ill - Big Guy! But COAST does not mean breaking speed limits. When you apply COAST - you more or less keep to the limit (or within the 10% either way)

My argument with the scam - particularly in LanCASH£££re and other more draconian pratnerships - is that they do not allow the 10%! As stated - confess that I blip over occasionally and this is quickly corrected. My epic speed blasts usually take place on tracks and in Germany

You say "carefully worked out speed limits" - in Lancs - area where they reduce 50mph speed limits on safe roads to 30mph without letting the locals know about it? They are used to road being certain limit and they are the people who actually get zapped!





Both "in Gear" and myself have more horror stories than you can muster mate! Our cousin Ferdl (talented alpine sportsman) died aged 30, leaving two toddlers when hit by vehicle at low speed with dodgy brakes.
You already know of my wife's incident!

However, treated several high speed incidents as more junior doc. Many tested positive for illegals too. This holds true more so today - because they simply have stopped using adequate trafpols. My colleagues have told me that they treat more not less high speed crunches - and drink, drugs and joyrider incidents feature most prominently in their BIDs (Brought In Deads).





Very few actually say this! You are interpreting this that way!



True - but all the good drivers I know do not have any lead in their boots!

Humbug. The driver is the ONLY one who can, and should, decide what speed is appropriate for conditions. Because it's ONLY the driver who has first-hand knowledge of what's happening on the road ahead. Not the "experts" sitting in town hall, who probably don't even drive.

Websites such as this one exist to counter the prevailing belief that speed enforcement, and that alone, is the be-all and end-all of road safety policy.
People like you are evidently living, breathing proof of how this mindset has pervaded society.

I see contradictions here: First you say...
(my emphasis)

...and...


but then you say...


You can't have it both ways, and councils attempts to set speed limits according to politically correct agendas is what is currently discrediting all limits. Where drivers see an obviously badly set limit, that limit has lost it's power to guide, and even though it is the legal maximum, it will be ignored. With an increasing large number of badly set limits, drivers will lose their trust in all limits.

When faced with two identical stretches of road, and two wildly different speed limits, why should a driver believe that what was the safe maximum on one of the roads, is unsafe on the other.


Kaz

I believe the 70mph, in this country, was introduced in the mid-sixties as a knee jerk reaction to a number of multiple car accidents which occured in foggy conditions.


Kaz

A temporary 70 mph limit was introduced in 1965 and made permanent a few years later by Barbara Castle, who I believe couldn't actually drive - great attribute for a Minister of Transport, that . I seem to remember reading that there had been some bad crashes in fog, and also some mad journos had got hold of an E-type Jag or something and floored it up the M1, which didn't exactly help. Seems it was thought that a 70mph limit was the answer, although I've driven a car from the mid sixties and short of chucking it off a cliff it wasn't able to go much over 70 anyway. The oil crisis may have been what prompted them to make the temporary limit permanent, though. Not sure when that was.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Someone in charge of speed limit policy and cannot drive? Plus ca change! Nowt changed there then!

There was indeed an oil crisis in early/mid 60s. My Dad cannot remember exact dates, but does remember getting coupons for his E-type at time! (Ma drove Moggie! ) The old geezers seem to think that this was caused by Suez and couple of other problems in Middle East at the time.

As for the 70mph limit - which most cars at the time would have been hard-pressed to cruise at anyway (The Moggies/Anglias/Austins/Morris/Heralds in our collective collection really struggle at that speed) - it was introduced as combination of crashes in fog/smog and the oil crisis. The fact that my Dad floored his E-type on regular basis at time had nowt to do with it - OK!

We also had temporary m/way limit set to 50mph in oil crisis of early 70s - to save fuel.

But today - we are seeing speed limits reduced for no good reason on roads which really should have been left alone.

We also see signs which cause accidents. Saw near miss yesterday on A6 in Manchester. Had come off M61, joined A580 and followed down to Manchester. On A6 in Salford - 50mph - three lane dual carriageway. No real problem, personally with the scams on here as they have Smiley Sid flashing the limit, with a "Slow Down" message before you hit the scamera. Seemed quite responsible and reasonable to me at time! Was even giving them a pat on the back here - which is unusual for me - as you all know! Was in Middle lane inside lane filters left just after the scam) However, this scam is positioned just after the slip road, not visible as hidden from view on approach by the big 30mph lollipop on the slip road) - and the bloke in the inside lane (ca 46mph) saw the 30mph sign at mouth of slip road, then saw the scam - and ... you guessed ... as Pavlov's dog - he hits his brake pedal hard to hit 30mph and bloke behind him tootling along at 46mph-ish as well) nearly runs into him as result!

So - here you have collision and serious accident potential within speed limit by poor signage and Pavlov Dog indoctrination by the Prats! I believe this site has seen many shunts and collisions despite its camera and despite the Smiley 100 yards preceding it! None apparently above the speed limit! Must be the scam, the sign, the speedo check, the Pavlov Dog effect of "brake for the camera"....

What a pity! The Prats here started so well and responsibly - then spoil and undermine it all by obliterating the actual scam with a speed limit sign which is not even the speed limit for the road!


The Mad Lad himself!

quote
What a pity! The Prats here started so well and responsibly - then spoil and undermine it all by obliterating the actual scam with a speed limit sign which is not even the speed limit for the road!


unquote


Yep there is a NATIONAL move to bring down all speed limits again , on the a and b roads, instead of a 60 mph, the 30's 40 's and 50's are almost everywhere..
Looks like two houses within 100 yards of a road, therefore must be a village, reduce speed to 30 mph max, 500 yard s either side of the the village. For the 500 yards outside of the new speed limit reduce it to 40 mph, to give the drivers a chance to slow down before the 30 mph.. Well blow me down looks like the 40 mph from my village bumps into the 40 mph of the next house , I mean village..


They have a cunning plan.


increase the tolerance of speed before u get quite so many points,
make them 6 points if u are going a wee bit to fast, Then reduce the
speed limits. everyone can then collect more points. More points more prizes

Then u have... 6 points for doing 30 in what used to be a 60.. we all get double bubble points and they keep the change.

rgds
bill

ps look up quiet roads in your local council. We even have a special officer at £35,000 to nominate same.

To Kaz.....

( Crivvins, this is hard work to have to reply to everyone who finds my thoughts so interesting by quoting them ! ).

Anyway....



OHHHHHH YESSSS I can !

You see, I accept that the speed limits are set by people that know more about the subject than I do and I feel happy that I can vary my methods of driving WITHIN these limits without the need to ignore the limits because I don't agree with them at the time.

This does not mean that a group of sensible people like a community council cannot appeal to the road-engineers that set these limits when local knowledge has proven that they have got it wrong on this occasion.

Although road-engineers are very skilled and trained people, just like any other people, ( except the "speedsafe" mob of course ), they do make human mistakes now and again.

I say that it is quite simply WRONG for the driver looking at that limit to decide arbitrarily and unilaterally that it is wrong just because he or she thinks so at the time.

If the limit is wrong, make it right the right way and not by breaking the law !

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Regards

Papaumau

http://www.rip-off.co.uk/index1.htm
http://www.network54.com/hide/forum/100558

That's one gibe too many and Papaumau's access has been suspended.

I rather suspect that this was what he wished to achieve.

I shall consider the situation, consult with some regular users, and inform everyone of any decision.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

If you are happy to accept this - fine! Take it that you live in area in which the people setting the limits can actually drive a car!

And perhaps not subject to quite as many idiotic speed changes, rip-off scams as those of us unlucky enough to live with Pratnerships are!

Unfortunately, down in England - we have idiots who think that lowering a speed limit willy nilly and not letting the locals know about it is the way to reduce collisions.

My kid sister notified us about road in Manchester - always been 40mph speed limit. Indeed ideally set so! No known dangerous history! Reduced overnight to 30mph. Sign notifying of reduction at time - two red oblongs obliterated by bus stop shelter for the first one and by line of parked cars in lay-by for the second one. Within the week - talivan made its presence. She made enquiries in local petrol station and supermarket, and asked one or two residents. Nobody had been informed of this change at all, and hardly anyone had noticed that the large lollipops at mouth of road had gone!

Even more worryingly -she reported that the talivan had no markings and very few registered that this was indeed a talivan !

Of course - she warned all and sundry in the petrol station at the time!

She passed this info to my wife - who posted it to the PH site as "useful info."

Trouble is Papamau - lot of local people will associate road they regularly drive on with a certain speed limit, and continue to drive at that limit, - not out of disregard for law, but as genuine oversight. Something they are "used to!" They may not even notice that the repeater sign has disappeared from the lamp posts. "Those vandals again" in case of that particular area! It happens! It could even happen to you!




Since when has a council applied common sense? Do they not have "council tax" where you are? Waste money willy nilly? Aw! Come on Paps! You run the "rip-off site" and you know damn well what I mean!

These councils are part of the Pratnerships! Of course they will want "piece of the action"!



Road engineers skilled and trained! You want to see some of the roads they engineered down in England - especially parts of North West England? Try M60! You would find that would blow your mind apart? But you need not worry about speed on that road - it crawls and still manages to have lots of collisions due to the crass incompetence of the pillock who designed it in the first place! Even the wife turns a little pale at thought of this particular motorway!

Then you have parts of M6 - we have already discussed our fave and crassly designed junctions elsewhere.

Can describe to you lots of other badly designed roads by these people who "make human mistakes now and again!" Except that their human mistakes actually cause more serious accidents than the driver who tootles past a camera at speed which trigs the flash!

You say "skilled and highly trained like any other people-"except the speedsafe mob - they do make human mistakes from time to time"

But of course mate!

My wife and I both hold jobs where one little error would land us in seriously hot water.

So we do not make mistakes in our professions, and we drive our cars in same meticulous way!

The same would apply to our host and the rest of the regulars- ("except one" (and I really cannot think who I have in mind! ) ) on here

Most are Meticulous and Talented!




We can all list roads which have ridiculous speed limits. That does not mean to say that all drivers fail to adhere to those limits even if they disagree with them.

You should not make such wild assumptions. Of course, we will blip over a posted limit on occasion - due to gradient, camber, road surface polish etc, etc. You do too! Our problem has more to do with fact that the Prats have placed their speed traps at the very point where they know there is strong probability of a blip - and as rip-off champion - you should be more aware of this than you appear to be!




Which is why we are campaigning for fairer deal regarding the blasted camera situation! And we are doing it the right way by suggesting ways of improving driver standards, giving tips via this site and others!

Really do think you owe a lot of people here some kind of apology mate!

Not against someone with different point of view, in fact - good to discuss and negotiate, with a bit of friendly, playful banter and teasing - but as pointed out before - there are ways of doing so, without seeking to enflame for sake of it!

Think you are the problem mate! Cut out the petty gibes and your views could make worth while discussion.

Good point Mad Mog. 'Scuse me while I nip off to Papaumau's rip-off forum and start a thread about how the Gatsos are fleecing us all.
Unless of course your professional medical opinion is to avoid raising his blood pressure that high.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Go for it!

Our mob will join you!