Safe Speed Forums

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 57,00.html

THE last haven where drivers can creep over the speed limit is being invaded by cameras.

From tomorrow one of Britain’s busiest motorways will be monitored in the first attempt to enforce the 70mph limit.

Until now police have struck only when motorists drive well over the limit on motorways. With their central barriers, gentle curves and grade separated junctions, motorways are considered to be far safer than any other road.

Shortly after midday tomorrow, drivers on the M4 in Wiltshire, between junctions 14 and 18, will face a £60 fine and three penalty points for speeding by as little as 9mph.

Cameras in marked vans will be operated from bridges over the motorway. Police and civilian operators will use laser guns on vehicles when they come within a kilometre of the bridges. Under the rules governing mobile cameras, the vans must be visible from 100 metres. But most drivers will be caught long before they come within that range.

More than half of all cars on motorways exceed the speed limit and a fifth travel at more than 80mph. Existing patrols tend to book only motorists who exceed 85mph.

Last night motoring groups accused the Wiltshire & Swindon Safety Camera Partnership of seeking to raise revenue without offering any evidence that safety would be improved.

Motorways are five times safer per mile driven than the average road and eight times safer than urban A roads. There were 9 crashes per 100 million vehicle kilometres on motorways in 2003, compared with 76 on urban A roads. Most of Britain’s 6,000 speed cameras are on A roads. On motorways they usually enforce only temporary speed limits during roadworks. The southwest section of the M25 has cameras on gantries to enforce the lower speed limit in operation during congested periods.

Under Department for Transport rules, camera partnerships can deploy mobile cameras only on stretches where there have been at least two collisions resulting in death or serious injuries per kilometre in the previous three years.

The Wiltshire partnership, which includes the police and the county council, will argue tomorrow that the casualty rate on the M4 is higher than on the average motorway and meets the level required by the department. There were 18 deaths, 69 serious injuries and 641 slight injuries between junctions 15 and 17 between 2001 and 2004.

Signs on the M4 and approach roads will alert drivers that they are entering a speed-trap area but they will not know where the vans will be parked. A spokeswoman for the partnership said that motorists who slow down for the yellow Gatso cameras before speeding up again would be caught by the M4 cameras: “People aren’t supposed to slow down just because they have seen a camera. They are supposed to slow down because it’s the law.” She said that the trigger speed for the cameras could be as low as 79mph and “could change from day to day”. The exact speed will remain confidential to prevent drivers from setting their cruise controls just below it.

The RAC Foundation accused the partnership of using irrelevant crash statistics to justify deploying cameras. Edmund King, its director, said that the casualty problem on the M4 was caused largely by people driving too close to the vehicle in front, stopping on the hard shoulder, overtaking without checking mirrors and failing to slow down for fog.

ROAD SAFETY
# Motorways account for a fifth of road traffic. In 2003, 184 people died on motorways compared with 1,890 on rural roads

# The average speed of cars on motorways (71 mph) has remained about the same since 1998

# The proportion of cars exceeding the 70mph limit was 57 per cent in 2003, up from 54 per cent in 2002

Wiltshire CC is obviously a bit short of cash just now.

Yeah, they have to pay back all those Folly Bottom fines.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

There were 18 deaths, 69 serious injuries

Divide this into the Billion Vehicle Kilometer figure and it is the safest road in the south no doubt.

Little consolation for the 18 dead and 69 seriously injured persons.

Well done to Wiltshire, I bet it even cuts down the traffic jams on that stretch as a result of fewer collisions.

By the way, the vans have to be visible for 60 or 100m on the road upon which they are parked to avoid people colliding with them. Nothing to do with visibility on they M4 they aren't on there.

Typical fallacy from someone who still doesn't believe that 100% compliance with speed limits can at best reduce collisions by 5%.

Keep saying it - reduce speed and reduce collisions - and perhaps enough idiots will believe you.

Yep, because five miles back, where the ripple effect takes effect it'll be at a standstill with the usual collection of rear end shunts.

I thought speed limits were about reducing speed differentials, not increasing them?

How do you know that there will be fewer collisions as a result of a daft policy starting from tomorrow?

Not noticed any sharp decrease in accidents in Cumbria or Lancs despite all those scams either.

By the way .... my wife was an SI some years ago and her cousin a K... neither the result of a speed per se incident. My wife's could have been prevented had a Panda BiB been awake at the time abd her cousin's death... Well, impact from heavy vehicle at a low speed ....caused by multiple vehicle defects.

Hence ... no consolation to me to see forest of scams. I want to see large contingent of wide awkae policemen who cop dangerous people and not a money grabbing organisation copping someone driving at 80 mph very competently down the motorway - and then deceiving themselves that this saves lives.




Ah! So that's why you conceal the one over Shap then .... Quite dangerous really as people will be looking up at bridges and not concentrating on the two second gap minimum they should be leaving...

Road danger catastrophe waiting to happen.....I would hold back on the congratulations if I were you...Steve, Kevin or what-his-name....

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I don't have the exact figures, but I've gleaned the following from various newspaper reports:
Most of those accidents involved HGVs, which are speed-limited to 56mph.
Most of the rest occurred under extremely adverse weather conditions.
One involved an elderly chap who drove the wrong way out of the motorway services.
At least one involved a driver taking ill at the wheel.
At least one involved a vehicle catching fire (no collision)
And at least one was a pedestrian on the carriageway.
Few, if any, involved cars exceeding 70mph.

So what effect are these scameras going to have on casualties?
Answer: Absolutely none!



Actually, the very safest road in the south is the M48 between the M4 and the Severn crossing (one of the safest in the country, in fact)
And with a long downhill section, three-figure speeds are commonplace.



We'll remember you said that - it may very well come back to bite you in a few months time.

No they have to be visible because the rules for collecting the cash demand it. The person who set up the camera partnerships probably thought it was actually to do with slowing people down!

Nice to know why you think it is important that they're not hidden, anyway.

You would be bloody lucky to achive the NSL on this stretch during rush hour. I had also posted about HGV figures in a seperate thread here
http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2279

I think its time for a trip to the compound where the wiltshire scam keeps their vehicles and clone all their numberplates. Drive up and down a few times.....

Oh, and the collisions will go up as traffic normally travels very close, and as soon as they see a scam van, out will go the anchors and then SMACK - Instant multiple vehicle pile up

If this occurs, you can be sure that I will be reminding you of this at every opportunity JJ

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And why hey, I saw a scam just west of J15. Amazingly, traffic congestion was worse than usual due to the scam making everything go slow

_________________
"Are you sh**ing me?"
"John Spartan, you are fined one credit for a violation of the verbal morality statute."

They'll get used to it.

Once the speed limit is used as a normal maximum traffic will flow better and tempers will calm.

Experience on the M6 in Cheshire, subjected to a well managed 40mph limit flowed very well when drivers observed a well known maximum speed. Well some did, some insisted on going through at close to the ACPO enforcement threshold and got caught out, but in general traffic flowed well at or just above the speed limit. No bunching, no stabbing of brakes, no panicing just a nice steady flow of calmness. BLISS

Good traffic management can only be achieved by suitable road engineering and a visible controlled trafpol presence. A revenue robot by the side of the road does nothing whatsoever for traffic management.

The very nature of the word "Management" implies human intervention, no control by an Orwellian device

_________________
"Are you sh**ing me?"
"John Spartan, you are fined one credit for a violation of the verbal morality statute."

There's been a mobile talivan on a bridge at J35 of the M4 popping up for years. It only pops up during dry sunny days, often on a weekend, and definately when there's an event at the Millenium stadium. I've been driving that stretch nearly every day for 10 years and never seen or heard of an accident. It's a wide flat 3 lane stretch that is never congested but you can tell when the talivan's there 'cos everyone's doing 60!

That's interesting. According to Saira Khan from the Wiltshire Safety Camera Partnership quoted on the BBC News website today (13/4/05) - "more than 200 people had died on the M4 in the past year.." later extended to "If those 240 people had been wiped out in one day there would have been an outcry."

I've written to the BBC to ask them to stop reporting arrant nonsense on the basis that according to the "Wiltshire Safety Camera Partnership" website, the part of the M4 that actually is in Wiltshire is 53Km (33 miles) and is "responsible for 12% of the fatalities in Wiltshire last year". So.. 240 represents 12%, ie the annual death-toll on Wiltshire's roads is some 2000.. The total for the entire UK is some 3500 - so are we to believe that poor old Wiltshire is such a lethally-dangerous county that about 65% of the UK's fatalities occur there? And, more to the point that *one* 33 mile stretch of road is responsible for just under 7% of the entire UK death-toll? If it is, it needs some serious investigation, not just a few revenue-gathering cameras.

One would have hoped that the BBC would have at least checked its facts a little more carefully rather than parroting "facts" spouted by the spokespersons for somewhat-less-than-disinterested parties.

'Scuse me? Traffic exceeding the limit flowed well and with calmness, and generated feelings of bliss in a SCP employee

presumably just above the camera threshold so lots of money coming in

Well, I was very pleased to hear BBC Points West giving the Wiltshire Scamerati the full opportunity to spout their propaganda. A very unbalanced report all told.

I was interested to hear that the section of motorway I drive on daily is known as "Death Valley". I was also interested to hear that this is the most dangerous section of motorway in the country, and also from a police scamerati who should know better that speed is a factor in over 30% of accidents, a figure we all know to be blatant propoganda

I intend to write to the BBC about this report - perhaps Paul can send BBC Points West a press release so that they can investigate this properly

_________________
"Are you sh**ing me?"
"John Spartan, you are fined one credit for a violation of the verbal morality statute."

This works best if you complain to them about unbalanced reporting. With a member of the public complaining there's no element of 'self promotion'.

By all means invite them to contact me for alternative opinions and a detailled explanation of the fundamental flaws in the partnership's case.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

So you're in to diminishing returns, really?

Rather odd that, despite 'headline' figures, there's a 'need' to concentrate effort on 'safe' environments rather than 'dangerous'.

PS Did you see the list of 'causes' printed above? Could you use your contacts to find out whether it's accurate. They're more likely to talk to you than us!