Safe Speed Forums

And nobody is suggesting that this is what people should do. Crikey, this cyclists riding in the middle of the road holding up others thing in this thread is the biggest straw man I've seen for a very long time!

So, when you wrote this




Are you not asserting that all cyclists fail to indicate, or are you saying some cyclists don't indicate?

Do note what Oscar stated (as he defended the ridiculous actions of the tanker driver, as well as bad driving in general):



What, none of them, ever?

Riding in primary position is riding bang in the middle of the lane you are using.

And before you (or somebody else) goes off on one again, NOT ALL THE TIME!

For instance I ride in primary if there is nobody behind me (as the cyclist in the video is doing), or when say coming up to a junction, or when going through a pinch point (although more often than not I'd slow to allow the faster vehicle to pass first).

Quite clearly I was not suggesting that all cyclists fail to indicate all the time, that was not implied by what I wrote, and any child capable of passing 13+ reading comprehension could tell you that. I for one always indicate when I am cycling (and driving and riding for that matter). My personal experience is that very very few cyclists do however, especially in circumstances where it would be most useful, such as busy city streets.



How is it a strawman exactly, when reading this very thread will show you certain cycling posters advocating obstructing other road users from continuing on their own lawful way for their own convenience and impression of what is safe for others to do?

_________________
Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

Obstructing other road users for their own convenience is hardly a vice confined to cyclists. Buses, HGVs, caravan towers, agricultural vehicles, small motor-bikes; they all hold up motorists, and sometimes cyclists. It's part of motoring. You have to live with it.

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Most here appear to be arguing from the standpoint that it's ridiculous that cyclists should ride in the middle of the road all the time, but nobody has suggested that cyclists should do this.

That's a classic straw man that really highlights the hatred the "I'm in my car, you must get out of my way" types on here appear to have for other road users.

Hahaha, your strawman is a strawman!

_________________
Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

Although it's been happening less and less of late, it used to be that slow-moving vehicles would regularly pull over to let faster traffic pass.

But, getting back on topic, I've often seen cyclists riding two abreast on NSL roads for no apparent reason - in what I call WTF moments

_________________
Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

I have spent quite some time reading this thread.
First may I say that 'name-calling' is not the norm here or encouraged on any level and I am frankly sorry to see it. It degrades good debates. This thread has had some very interesting points made that have barely been discussed, which is a shame.

I think reading it in 'one go' it would be impossible (time wise) to cover everything that I'd like but it occurs to me that there seems to be two schools of education and understanding at work. I have viewed all videos and material linked in this thread and it has thrown up a whole host of (mis)-interpretation IMHO.

First let's establish what is expected when tackling a roundabout :
and this from DVLA :
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTr ... /DG_070338
and then
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTr ... G_10026401
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTr ... /DG_069837

Within the above I can easily see how different people, might interpret these points with greater and lesser emphasis. Also taking into consideration how different people concentrate on how one section might have a greater or lesser importance to their specific choice and preference it can allow for a massive difference in attitude, 'predictability', position and assertiveness when riding or driving.

Then when we look at this in the Bikeability Level 3 section I can see still further how more and more and greater conflicts are going to arise. Frankly it is a recipe for disaster. :
[url=http://www.dft.gov.uk/bikeability/wp-content/uploads/Bikeability_Level_3_Course_Manual.pdf]
http://www.dft.gov.uk/bikeability/wp-co ... Manual.pdf[/url]


Let me just take a moment to say that I have had many hours of safe bike riding in rural, and urban (inc 150m / wk in central London) riding as well as many miles of car driving (inc lorries and trailers).
I think that I would like a camera to have for fun only. If I ever started to gear-up for an evidence trail I would have to ask myself why. (I will add that since this thread has got so jumpy - I am NOT implying anything to anyone - just stating my choice and my decision about my ability and responsibility to keep myself safe.)
I know that riding has tried to be 'defined' and sometimes in doing so like with all things it is open to interpretation.
I think the subtle difference of positioning needs to be fully understood as although I think most people here are all mostly talking from the same hymn sheet, there is some video evidence to the contrary - but - video analysis after an event fails to take into consideration the 'real world' decisions and the bits we see and don't see.
I do think that the cyclist at the roundabout did look left to a degree but crucially failed to react to the potential danger - a mistake.
This cyclist chose to ride a straight(ish) (for sake of argument) line through the roundabout, s/he needed to be prepared for others to mis-understand their manoeuvre, also a mistake.
The lorry for whatever reason entered the roundabout, and that was another mistake. I am sure it felt like 20cm but it doesn't look like it from my observance but it was very close indeed.
I can see that there needs to be much discussion about all the above, and especially the DfT guidelines about cyclists positioning.
I think too that this thread touches on several other areas of car / bike issues, which should be discussed in another thread for greater concentration to each subject.

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

I know you qualify your post by saying "most" but I still don’t get ‘the heat’ and references to us, as in Safe Speed, being grouped together as some sort of cycle haters when as I have already said we too are cyclists.

It borders on safespeed’ism. Although you and others have made it, are making it, personal to SS that is a complete red herring.

As far as I am concerned this is a forum which just so happens to be called Safe Speed and I have taken my SS hat off to argue the case against PP and my personal experiences as an experienced cyclist.

It could be any other forum we are on and we would still hold the views we do, so I’d prefer it if you or anyone else didn’t personalise this particular topic to some kind of nefarious cycle-hating place; it isn't and never has been AFAIK.

I won't drop names but you wouldn’t believe who owns what and how much ‘we’ cycle. So why would you think 'we' want to argue against PP when we ourselves have a vested interest in knowing what is or isn't safe cycling practice? You are not the only one who cycles you know!

I haven't had a rant like that for a while

_________________
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

I am the cyclist in the video, so let me answer your points.

At that roundabout you have excellent visibility to the left from quite early on in the approach. The next approaching road (where the tanker came from) is easily visible. From quite early on I saw the tanker approaching. I can do this quite easily here without turning my head. In hindsight, had I know that this moment in my cycling would have been scruitinsed quite so much, I would have made more effort to make my looks more obvious on video.

As I got closer to the junction I could see the tanker, quite some distance back, and at that point it appeared that the tanker was slowing down. Also at that point I made, what I though was, eye contact with the driver. Eye contact made, he appeared to be slowing down, I proceeded onto the roundabout as any other road user would do in that situation. I had slowed down at this point to around about 15mph which is slower than I normally take that roundabout.

One on the roundabout whilst continuing to watch the tanker (again my eyes moved without my head moving much - damn!) I noticed that the tanker was speeding up again. Eeek! At this point the brakes were applied. It should be noted that it was -3C that day, and whilst the road was not icy, it was a little slippy, so my braking was limited to an extent. At the end of my stopping my back wheel skidded.

I can ASSURE you, that 20cm is not an exaggeration. This is about the distance that my front wheel was from the tanker. Remember my head is set back from my wheel and further, the camera is on my right, so a little further away still. My wheel at this point was also turned slightly to the right. Had it not been, it would have been closer.

As for me not using the cycle lane, the DfT guidance is for cyclists travelling +18mph not to use lanes, and with good reason. In sections where my speed is low (going up steep hills for instance) I will use a lane if available, but ONLY if it is safe to do so. Often it isn't.

The way I took the roundabout, despite what any text says is in fact the route that other vehicles take. If in fact you look at the roundabout on google maps this can be seen from the 'view from above (where the road is swept clear). I keep to this lane, to stop cars overtaking/undercutting on the roundabout, to keep on the cleanest (least slippy) part of the road etc.


What must be remembered is that despite the tanker driver driving in a completely crazy manner without any care for my safety, I still managed to stop safely. Surely that suggests that I did something right!

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

That your links are, quite precisely, dead.

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Your observation is quite inaccurate

They're not dead; they're actually quite alive.
What they show is a total lack of search results for what magnatom claimed: there is no such guidance from the DfT. The only thing 'dead' is his claim.

The highlights of the expanded link shows where his error came from: a 7 year old consultation document.

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Then I would suggest that your new vari-focal glasses are faulty.

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Ah yes, but I don't use them for driving.

And you wouldn't be suggesting that I am, umm, telling a deliberate untruth, would you?

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Not a deliberate one. Just suggesting that your perception is conditioned by your prejudice. In which area do you mainly see this miscreant cyclists?

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Generally in the vicinity of traffic signals.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

All the red light jumpers are there on the 'Silly Cyclists' site!

MrGrumpyCyclist and magnatom

magnatom thank you for coming along and putting your side of this event, I appreciate that. This will help us all to debate this with better precision and establish more directly what did and didn't take place from your direct perspective.

I see the main issues as: Camera use, riding positioning, pace with regards to being able to 'stop in the distance that you know to be clear' attitude, consideration and courtesy.Can you give us a link to the location please.
OK if the vision is good then you can establish the speed with which the tanker approaches the roundabout?
Whilst I do appreciate that we are scrutinising every aspect, but it is only to obtain a greater understanding and learn from others experiences.
I also know that people do a surprising amount of movement almost totally involuntary, so even a small movement will indicate a thought process which is one aspect of observation and considerations. that can help us establish what may have been in your thought-process of potential dangers.
So we can state then that you saw the truck heading 'at a steady pace' (would you agree?) towards the roundabout.
I can see a tiny amount of truck after he is on the roundabout (ra) and he is travelling at a steady rate from my observations.If you think that you had eye contact, where was he looking and where did his eyes then goto (as that tells you where he will drive to (as we drive where we look). I would wager that he looked back onto the ra and as he has failed to slow significantly at his give way line and as there was little other traffic (perhaps from his 'threat interaction perception'), he may not have either seen you or considered you a threat. Perhaps he only saw your slower moment and judged that - if he did see you. Just because he 'caught your eye' does not mean that you can guarantee that he saw you.
At this point it seems that perhaps you have assumed or otherwise mistakenly felt safe in presence of great danger. As we tend to get angry when threatened as as you go on to show extreme fear it would strengthen the case that what happened you did not expect. However had you recognised the 'what if' scenario you could have held back more and 'paused' to double / triple check that he was going to wait and be prepared with an (all important) 'exit route'. All easy to judge in hindsight of course!
It does concern me that you are so shocked, as this implies that you did not expect this at all, and although I take account of your words, carefully, I cannot understand why not?
Can you explain further whether it occurred to you (if at all and if so, when), that he was not going to stop?Hummm OK thank you for the honesty but if you know that it was bad grip then I cannot see why you would then proceed at a higher speed ? So now that puzzles me too? If you notice that the tanker is speeding up (I have to ask, sorry) why had you not allowed for this and been prepared. (That leads me to a much more basic point about about rd dominance which I don't (yet) want to get too distracted with right now - but hold the thought!)I do appreciate that the cam is further back than your wheel and I wasn't there but from the video to me doesn't look that close - perhaps 2ft - which I totally appreciate is showing that you were within that crucial last 3sec reaction from an accident - applicable to all road users.
At this point my general overall thought is still that you failed to fully or properly consider what the truck was doing and then not appreciate the danger that he posed to you if he didn't stop. You needed to be 'prepared to stop'
There have been large discussions here about being (when arriving at all types of junction), either 'prepared to stop' or 'ready to go'. It looks like you were in the latter category on this occasion, would you agree? I can see that as previously pointed out - here :Annex D: Code of Conduct Notice for Cyclists that it is part of an Archived consultation it is not 'current law or guidance' therefore it cannot be taken as 'proper advice'.
As a cyclist of many yrs central London riding, and I can't even recall ever seeing a cycle lane, I can understand the need to occasionally use the road when cars etc are blocking the route. I can also understand that many experienced cyclists might see them as a place for in-experienced or 'poor' cyclists too perhaps?
The lanes are there to use, preferably by initial choice and to only leave when necessary, not really to enter only when you really feel that you have to ... a waste of money if cyclists only use them 1 mile in every 500 don't you think. If that becomes the norm we might as well remove them, altogether - wouldn't you agree?
(That is probably worth opening up a new thread on.)well the links that I gave previously state clearly both by the DfT (HC) and the BikeAb that cyclists are to follow around as a car will, use any cycle lane available or walk.
In the real world we see people taking the straight line, as preferable to slowing and proceeding 'around' (also another thread-worthy topic by itself), again do give us a link as that will help us appreciate the (nearly) full visual aspects and your path.
However that 'line' cannot ever guarantee that it 'stops' people overtaking, although I appreciate 'overtaking' is impossible if you are on the inside verge to the ra centre ! Inner and outer verges (depending on size to a degree) are rarely free of grit and rubble.
However undertakers are easily 'invited' if you will, and so you have simply 'moved the goalposts'. There is no 'absolute guarantee' when riding a bike, you cannot be sure to 'control traffic by positioning alone', a bike is too small and you are too vulnerable. You can encourage a little extra 'space please', and you can position yourself for better safety and protection. (Also good for another detailed topic thread).The tanker driver's thought's will never be known unless he too might pop up on here, but I am concerned too that he should 'care for your safety', he won't, that is your responsibility not his. He will care about not hitting you for himself, probably because he has not desire to hurt anybody, but not 'for' you. For you implies that he has some specific obligation to especially watch over you. Humm, who wants someone else to be responsible for them (other than little kiddies or incapacitated). So then, you, have to watch out for yourself, to be totally responsible for your own actions and retain control over all the space about you?
Yes you did manage to brake within the last 2 sec or less and that is good, so would you say that, that was down to your fast reactions ?
You have had an incredible near miss, and thankfully that is all it was - but how can you ride better next time to ensure that it won't happen again - what lessons do you think this has taught you - perhaps now that the shock has worn off ?
Edited to add in a link.

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.