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 Post subject: Killer under the bonnet
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 02:05 
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/10293519.stm

Quote:
Windscreen water infection risk
By Emma Wilkinson
Health reporter,

Windscreen wiper water may be the cause of 20% of cases of Legionnaire's Disease in England and Wales, the Health Protection Agency says.

Stagnant, warm water is a breeding ground for the Legionella bacterium, which when inhaled causes pneumonia.

Yet adding screenwash kills the bacteria and could save lives, the Agency advised.

The finding came after researchers spotted that professional drivers are five times more likely to be infected.

Legionnaire's disease is fairly rare. Most cases are sporadic and a source of the infection is not found.

The number of cases vary from year to year, but in 2009 there were 345 in England and Wales - although some infections were caught overseas.

It mainly affects the over 50s and is generally more common in men.

Early symptoms feel similar to flu with muscle aches, tiredness, headaches, dry cough and fever. It is fatal in around 10-15% of patients.

Driving

To work out why people who spend a long time driving were at higher risk of infection, the research team in the south-west branch of the HPA carried out a questionnaire of people infected.

They found that those most at risk were those who drove or travelled in a van, those who drove through industrial areas, and those who spent a lot of time in the car or who often had the car window open.
Continue reading the main story

This is a bug which lives in the environment and will take advantage of warm water systems that are not cleaned out

Professor Hugh Pennington

In all they found that the biggest risk was associated with not adding screenwash to windscreen wiper water, the European Journal of Epidemiology reports.

In a pilot study carried out by the HPA, traces of Legionella were found in one in five cars that did not have screenwash, but in no cars that did.

Dr Isabel Oliver, regional director of the HPA South West, said more research was needed but people may want to check they have screenwash in their cars as they usually contain agents which would stop the growth of bacteria.

"It does not spread from person to person but is present in water environments and is breathed in when it gets into the air in fine particles or mist."

Professor Hugh Pennington, an expert in bacteriology, said the advice to add screenwash was very sound - especially as it would also lead to a cleaner windscreen.

"This is a bug which lives in the environment and will take advantage of warm water systems that are not cleaned out.

"Legionnaire's is rare but it kills people and it's an extremely unpleasant disease.

"If you can prevent it with something this simple then it's a no brainer really."

I find this hard to believe myself, as most people use screen wash, AND are unlikely to breath in the spray from their washer bottle if they dont!

Even the evidence in the text above highlights OTHER potential causes...
those who drove or travelled in a van, those who drove through industrial areas, and those who spent a lot of time in the car or who often had the car window open.
Industrial areas with air con units and exhaust vapours from works are a known risk!

However, if it encourages drivers to use screen wash, then I am all for it!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 23:26 
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Does seem a bit odd. I'd be keen to see sample size. Someone said it was amongst taxi drivers. I'd have thought they, of all people, would get through their screenwash quite quickly, so evn without additive, it wouldn't stay there long enough to grow the bugs.

Also wondering if there were other confounding factors. Isn't air conditioning (especially not regularly used) a prime place for the bugs to grow?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 09:59 
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50 quid says it's the air conditioning not the screen wash


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:57 
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adam.L wrote:
50 quid says it's the air conditioning not the screen wash

I half agree - but how would the AC fluid reach the cabin unless it leaked?

In Barrow in Furness, the cooling tower for the AC on top of the Forum 28 building was the cause - and most of those affected were in a walkway alongside the building, not in the open street.

The info. in the media release even states that the drivers visited industrial areas - so making it very difficult to point the finger exclusively at the washer bottle.
The presence of the bacteria in the bottle does not prove it could infect on it's own.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 14:30 
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Ernest Marsh wrote:
adam.L wrote:
50 quid says it's the air conditioning not the screen wash

I half agree - but how would the AC fluid reach the cabin unless it leaked?




It doesnt take long for that air-con evaporator buryd deep within the dasboard (Where you cannot get at it for cleaning or checking) to become a thoughraly nasty damp slime and mold encrusted hot bed of pestilance!

it would nt surprise me in the least if such an enviroment could become a habitat for legionella. Many other (even nastier) bugs would also happily make a home there!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 15:50 
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Dusty wrote:
Ernest Marsh wrote:
adam.L wrote:
50 quid says it's the air conditioning not the screen wash

I half agree - but how would the AC fluid reach the cabin unless it leaked?




It doesnt take long for that air-con evaporator buryd deep within the dasboard (Where you cannot get at it for cleaning or checking) to become a thoughraly nasty damp slime and mold encrusted hot bed of pestilance!

it would nt surprise me in the least if such an enviroment could become a habitat for legionella. Many other (even nastier) bugs would also happily make a home there!


I had the need to take the roof of a tractor a couple of weeks ago to clean the evaporator. Not nice, a festering block of damp dust and corroding evaporator core. I dread to think what is living in there and being blown onto whoever is driving it's face.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 16:47 
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Ernest Marsh wrote:
adam.L wrote:
50 quid says it's the air conditioning not the screen wash

I half agree - but how would the AC fluid reach the cabin unless it leaked?

The AC fluid isn't the problem. As Dusty points out, it is the moisture taken from the air (condensed on the cold AC radiator) and remaining on/around the AC radiator area that could be the problem - that makes sense to me.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 22:56 
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Yes, if you've been driving along on a warm, muggy day and you turn the aircon off, you generally get very humid conditions in the cabin (maybe even a bit of screen misting) after a few minutes. It's that which can distribute the bacteria to the occupants.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 23:53 
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Mole wrote:
Yes, if you've been driving along on a warm, muggy day and you turn the aircon off, you generally get very humid conditions in the cabin (maybe even a bit of screen misting) after a few minutes. It's that which can distribute the bacteria to the occupants.

IIRC, the legionella bacteria have to be carried in droplets?
I am sure that was the explanation during the trial in Barrow of the people involved.

Misting on the windscreen is condensation , not deposition of droplets - hence my scepticism.

I shall now go and google the conditions required! :) :typing:

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 20:21 
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Just asked Mrs. M and it IS water-borne. That said, I don't think you need much water for one to sit on! Condensation is just small droplets of water, after all, but I accept that you probably wouldn't ingest them unless you were in the habit of licking your indscreen clear each morning!


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 23:02 
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Mole wrote:
Just asked Mrs. M and it IS water-borne. That said, I don't think you need much water for one to sit on! Condensation is just small droplets of water, after all, but I accept that you probably wouldn't ingest them unless you were in the habit of licking your indscreen clear each morning!


Could you check with Mrs mole that the the water needs to be atomised so that the particles are small enough to be inhaled into into the lungs? After all LD is a respiratory disease so that ingesting the virus should be harmless. ISTR a case ,many years ago where the disease seemed to be targeting Americans over Europeans in a particular hotel. Turned out that it was because the Americans took showers whereas the Europeans preferred baths.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 19:55 
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Ok I asked...

She was quick to point out that this is not her particular field of expertise but yes, it's definitely contracted by inhaling the bugs. Not sure that if you drank some infected water, you'd be OK though! She did point out that things don't have to be atomised to be inhaled though smallish droplets can be inhaled. Whether or not the muggy air that comes out of the car's face vents when you turn the aircon off are big enough to carry LD is, I suppose, unlikely.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 22:10 
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Thanks.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:14 
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I am significantly underwhelmed by the suggestion that you could be infected with Legionaires from your own windscreen washer as the liquid would go over you and not enter the cabin. Also I think that most additives would have an algaecide/bacteriacide as part of the anti sludge component.
I have had air-conditioned cars for almost 40 years and have never heard of any diseases transmitted through them. The worst contaminant back in the days of smoking and recirculating air was tobacco smoke - it could get pretty vile to smell but had no ill effects.

As we have warmer ambient temperatures than you if it was likely to happen it would be under our conditions and more so in the northern parts of Australia. The in-cabin heat exchanger is quite cold (I have seen frost on them) and this would kill most bacteria. The water present is condensation from the atmosphere either from within the cabin or, on modern vehicles, from the exterior which is fairly clean. This drains to the outside of the vehicle hence there is little chance of a build up of bacteria. Effectively the surfaces of the heat exchanger get washed while in operation.

All the cases of Legionaire's that I have heard of here arose from the cooling towers of building air conditioners. The cooling water of these is open to the atmosphere on the roof and it is quite warm. Failure to maintain these, ie not dosing with bacteriacide and algaecide, allows a nice soup to built up and windborne droplets land on the people on the street.

I regard car air-conditioning (or its more modern version of climate control) as being an excellent road safety device. There is an immense difference in demeanour and judgement between drivers in a nice cool 22 degrees celsius and those operating in a high humidity 40 degree cabin temperature. Also in wet weather it keeps the glass clear - no more misted up windows.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 23:26 
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Although it's true that the evaporator core can get pretty cold (close to freezing - shouldn't actually freeze unless the anti-icing switch is knackered), the rest of the heater box internals aren't as cold. The condensation drips off the evaporator and into the bottom of the heater box where it forms puddles and MOST of it runs down the drain tubes. When you stop the car, (or turn the aircon off) you end up with some damp bits in the heater box and ducts caused by water that didn't run down the drain tubes.


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