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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 00:17 
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Pete317 wrote:
Something I missed earlier...

I wonder if the child's aunt would have been more careful to keep the child under control had there been a train line or a cliff-edge nearby.


First one - there'd be a fence( six foot ,with pointy spikes) ,with a warning about a £1000 fine for trespassing .

Second one -some land owner would have notices about trespassing , and sued the aunt ,having made sure all the gates were closed .

And Dusty - how close was I on the "SINK TEST" -

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 15:31 
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botach wrote:
First one - there'd be a fence( six foot ,with pointy spikes) ,with a warning about a £1000 fine for trespassing .

Second one -some land owner would have notices about trespassing , and sued the aunt ,having made sure all the gates were closed .


Not necessarily - they could be on a station platform, for example.
Also, I've seen unprotected cliff edges accessible from the road - not many, but they do exist - eg the ones above Dover.
And there are other hazards as well, like canals.

But back to the point - even if there had been a 20mph limit there, I shudder to think what would have happened had the kid run out directly in front of a bus or lorry.

What beats me is, when exactly did someone decide that roads are a safe environment for kids? That mythical time has never existed.
In the 19th century, kids were trampled to death in their thousands every year under hoof and carriage wheel, and even before that they died like flies from the effects of raw sewage running down the streets.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 15:52 
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Safety Engineer wrote:
Pete, probably, one side effect that I see with the speed kills campaign is that (one 'safety' advert in particular comes in for a lot of stick from me) seems to absolve pedestrians from responsibility for thier own safety and given an expectation that cars just stop in no distance with almost star trek like physics.


Quite.
The laws of physics apply to everyone, and the most deceleration one can achieve is around 0.7-0.9g, depending on the road surface. Even a Formula 1 car wouldn't achieve much more than that at low speeds (without any down-force)
This means that, at 20mph, including reaction time, you need four or more car-lengths in which to stop, and even from 10mph you need at least one car-length.
The bottom line is, if you step out directly in front of any moving vehicle, you must expect to get hit.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 17:35 
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wmoore wrote:
GreenShed wrote:
Well that is quite right but what you and many of your chums have failed to see is that the lower speed in the accident has in this brilliantly illustrative case prevented the seriousness of the INJURY whatever the cause of the accident.


As others have said the accidents needs to be prevented in the first place. To some people it seems that it is OK to hit them as long as you are doing a slow speed
so you won't injury them. But what a lot of people forget is not the physical injuries, but the emotional injuries that can happen to the victim and to the parents
as well.


I was thinking about his today, had the driver been on the ball, after a couple of days he would have a vague recollection of the day some dumb kid ran out in front of him. As it is, he wasn't on the ball and for a very long time he will be able to recall vividly the child bouncing across his bonnet. there will be feelings of guilt and what if I had done x y and z.

Did anyone see Hammond and Stirling Moss? They both said that people thought they were lucky. Hammond said he would have been much luckier had he not have had a puncture. The child would have been even luckier of he/she had not run out in front of a car that perhaps wasn't paying qui ough attention.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 21:58 
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wmoore wrote:
GreenShed wrote:
Well that is quite right but what you and many of your chums have failed to see is that the lower speed in the accident has in this brilliantly illustrative case prevented the seriousness of the INJURY whatever the cause of the accident.


As others have said the accidents needs to be prevented in the first place. To some people it seems that it is OK to hit them as long as you are doing a slow speed
so you won't injury them. But what a lot of people forget is not the physical injuries, but the emotional injuries that can happen to the victim and to the parents
as well.


And as you can see below even getting hit by a car can cause a 3 year old to take up smoking and drinking :drink2: :drink2: :drink2: . (mirror.co.uk)

Quote:
Her name is Ya Wen, and after she was knocked down by a speeding van and suffered serious head injuries her personality changed. Her parents say she is now addicted to cigarettes, beer and prefers to dress as a boy.

Mum Gao Ya Man, who sells garbage in Huizhou, China, said: "The first time I found her smoking was in the toilet. She also likes drinking. Three glasses of beer is no problem for her."

A doctor at Huizhou hospital where Ya Wen was treated said: "People can undergo changes to their personalities if they suffer brain injuries."


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 23:22 
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Yoohoo, Greenshed, where are you hiding?

We're all waiting here with bated breath for your words of wisdom on all the points we've addressed to you :tumbleweed:

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 23:32 
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Pete317 wrote:
Yoohoo, Greenshed, where are you hiding?

We're all waiting here with bated breath for your words of wisdom on all the points we've addressed to you :tumbleweed:


Don't hold on too long - the windchill factor will take effect soon .Sometomes I wonder of GS is affected by the effects of being cooped up too long underwater ,which affects his mental stability ,and his memory . Something like the "Ancient mariners" disease - sort of like a sea going version of Altzheimers,caused by being too close to a Uranium pile ( or it being too close to a real pile)

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 23:38 
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botach wrote:
- sort of like a sea going version of Altzheimers,caused by being too close to a Uranium pile ( or it being too close to a real pile)

:lol:

The nice thing about having Alzheimers is that you're always meeting new people :wink: (before anyone takes offence, let me point out that my Mum suffered from it)

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 23:57 
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Pete317 wrote:
botach wrote:
- sort of like a sea going version of Altzheimers,caused by being too close to a Uranium pile ( or it being too close to a real pile)

:lol:

The nice thing about having Alzheimers is that you're always meeting new people :wink: (before anyone takes offence, let me point out that my Mum suffered from it)



You missed the "Ancient Mariners disease" ,once caused by killing an Albatross ,the reference to GS (being kind to him was that his days close to a nuclear pile had brought on a sort of Alzheimers ), or that he'd just got nuclear piles .

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 00:05 
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botach wrote:
You missed the "Ancient Mariners disease"


I didn't miss it - just didn't think it was necessary to repeat your whole quote :)

Quote:
or that he'd just got nuclear piles .


.. or a pile of something else :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:36 
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Pete317 wrote:
GreenShed wrote:
You seem to have omitted those particular sections, any reason for that?


Funny that, so did the earlier editions of Roadcraft. The copy I bought about 25 years ago hardly mentions speed limits.


I bought my son a copy of "Roadcraft" about 7 or 8 years ago and was dismayed to see the sections on speed limits included which I did not recall from earlier versions. "Roadcraft" has had revisions over the years but I have a feeling that this particular set of additions occurred in Brunston's time as head of the Chief Constables Traffic Group (or whatever it was called). Perhaps someone with closer contacts than I could check to see what revisions were done at what times.

Generally this sort of statement ("blind obedience is essential!") negates all the valuable stuff.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 23:41 
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Pete317 wrote:
Something I missed earlier...

I wonder if the child's aunt would have been more careful to keep the child under control had there been a train line or a cliff-edge nearby.


Are you suggesting our urban roads are as dangerous as trains or cliff edges?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 23:50 
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weepej wrote:
Are you suggesting our urban roads are as dangerous as trains or cliff edges?


Well we all missed GS 'S further comments -but along pops weepy.

(post edited by PeterE as moderator)

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 00:51 
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weepej wrote:
Are you suggesting our urban roads are as dangerous as trains or cliff edges?


Well hello again, weepej, still with your usual trolling stunts I see, adding absolutely nothing of value to the discussion :roll:

But, in this instance I'll indulge you and answer your question with another question:

Have you ever seen what a buse's wheels can do to a small child?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 07:40 
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weepej wrote:
Pete317 wrote:
Something I missed earlier...

I wonder if the child's aunt would have been more careful to keep the child under control had there been a train line or a cliff-edge nearby.


Are you suggesting our urban roads are as dangerous as trains or cliff edges?


The answer to that Weepej is, unfortunately, more dangerous than railway lines: less dangerous than cliff edges.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:30 
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Quote:
how close was I on the "SINK TEST"


Very!

Poorer families would leave sickly newborns in the sink overnight. If they were still alive next morning they were considererd strong enogh to be worth calling (And paying for!) the Doctor.

It was not generally talked about but widly practiced,

Although Childern severly disabled from diseases such as polio and rickets were common in poorer communities. Children disabled from birth were almost unheard of!

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 15:08 
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Pete317 wrote:
weepej wrote:
Are you suggesting our urban roads are as dangerous as trains or cliff edges?


Well hello again, weepej, still with your usual trolling stunts I see, adding absolutely nothing of value to the discussion :roll:

But, in this instance I'll indulge you and answer your question with another question:

Have you ever seen what a buse's wheels can do to a small child?



Ok, so an ad hominin attack followed by a completely pointless question.

And it's I that adds absolutely nothing of value to the discussion?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 15:57 
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Folks, can we ensure we remain civil and on topic please?


I'll restart:
weepej wrote:
Pete317 wrote:
I wonder if the child's aunt would have been more careful to keep the child under control had there been a train line or a cliff-edge nearby.


Are you suggesting our urban roads are as dangerous as trains or cliff edges?

When stepping into roads: drivers will avoid or stop quickly when you step into their paths.
When stepping into a railway line: the train will endeavour to stop but can only do so slowly; also they cannot avoid. Furthermore, there is the merciless penalty (electrocution - where there are electric lines) that you don't get with road surfaces.
When stepping off a cliff: there will be uncontrolled acceleration and no braking - until you reach something at the end; need I say more?

I don't see how your question helps the debate. While a road probably isn't as dangerous as other areas, it doesn't absolve the guardian of their responsibility towards their ward.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 18:00 
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Steve,

I just gave what I thought was an appropriate response to what I saw as being a loaded question designed to throw the discussion off course - and not without precedent either.

I apologise if I read it wrongly.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 18:37 
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I’m not sure what the relevance of the cliff was if I’m honest. But if it was to draw an analogy to a car hitting a child at 20 mph, my analogy would be it’s like blaming the cliff for being too high or just being there in the first place. (That what I took Pete to be suggesting?). In other words, at what point does the person who gets hurt take responsibility for their own actions?

It’s not always one-sided. It can be the child’s fault, or the supervisor of that child, just as it can be the driver’s fault. But I know weepej’s argument usually goes, (and do please correct me if I’m wrong), in any pedestrian/car collision it is the driver at fault because it is the driver who is in charge of a giant killing machine?

I’ve never once known you entertain the notion that in any such collision the pedestrian was entirely at fault but again, do correct me if I’m wrong and point me to a link if possible?

Your answer and solution weepej is always for the driver to go slower thereby mitigating any collision and absolving pedestrians of any responsibility to be a good pedestrian who should know and understand what I knew as a kid as the Green Cross Code. I'm alive because of it and it was inculcated into me by both the TV and my mother.


Where is that today? :? It's always the driver's fault...Image

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