Safe Speed Forums

It is probably the switch, try taking it out and cleaning it or replacing it. I bet they only cost a couple of quid. One of the lorries at work had the window winder break off leaving a nice sharp edge to cut you wrists on and no means of winding the window down. Rubbish that, better with an electric one

But that is the case no matter how complex or not a machine is, at some point it will be no longer economic to repair it. The last couple of years I had my golf the auto choke didn't work properly. The Honda is now older and has covered more miles than the Golf, but the fueling is exactly as has always been, thanks to the ECU and electronic fuel injection.

I don't service the car because I don't have the knowledge or skills never mind confidence to do it. That is not to say that it is not possible for me to service it. My bike is simple enough mechanically for me to tackle, but a more confident home mechanic could tackle something more complex. I dare say that Abercrombe could easily service my car, because the fact that the fueling is done electronicly just means he won't have to worry about that. Everything else is just a car.

Is it a MKII Golf? Well I have 18yr old one with 150,000. Brought it new and its never been in a garage workshop. All I have ever done iis change the oil, oil filter, air filter (Carb), plugs and brake pads. Has original fuel filter and cam belt.

Only repairs are two sets of shocks, changed by pal as I don't have spring clamps, and clutch at 130,000miles. The rest I have replaced:
Vacume hose
Key/ignition barrel
Wax Stat
Fuel Tank Straps
Hand brake cables
Brake lines (pal helped bleed them)
Cabin heater pressure safety valves.
Front bearings (bearing housing taken by pal to remove old/insert new bearings at garage) at 150,000miles

If only everything in life was as reliable as a Volkswagen.

Yes, they're just "better". Despite what the Luddites would have us believe! I haven't forgotten the HOURS spent pi55ing about with carburettor faults and distributors on my first cars. Carbs in particular, being analogue devices are the work of the Devil! At least with injection systems, components tend to work or they don't. Even then they leave a handy trail of electrical information in their wake when they go sick! It would be interesting in this day and age to see if (just hypotetically assuming we could) cars went back to carbs how many of them would end up on the scrapheap as being uneconomical to repair. Thinking about this over the last few days it struck me that in those halcyon days of "easy-to-fix" cars, labour rates were much lower. People had more time on their hands. Cars were more expensive to buy compared to an average income than they are today. All these circumstances (and, it has to be said, more of a "make-do-and-mend" ethos) brought about a situation where it was worth making multiple trips to the garage (or local mechanic) who could spent those many and frequent hours messing about with your timing and other such lost arts.

I have an increasingly strong feeling that such cars would either only be viable for DIY enthusiasts these days or would go to an even earlier grave than their "too-complex-by-half" modern equivalents!

In a previous job, I worked for a company that made sports cars. We always had the Japanese pestering us for a lightweight, barebones, "stripped-out-no-compromise-racing" version with wind-up windows. On looking into it, we found that the manual equivalent to the electric window system that we fitted was actually MORE expensive!

No, it's more your (almost nauseatingly frequent) assertions that the only reason manufacturers have all this electrical / computerised gubbins on ther vehicles is to (a) force us to go to their franchised dealer (an argument for which, incidentally, I have some limited sympathy!) and (b) force us to send the car to an early grave and buy a new one off them. That and your implicit suggestion that the rest of the motoring public OUGHT to want the same as you but have been brainwashed by the evil manufacturers into wanting the latest gadgets when they don't really need them. Come on, credit us SOME ability to decide what we do and don't want!


There are some here (not you. obviously!) that would argue that's EXACTLY what they're doing! - (e.g. bin the points. condenser, distributor and use a nice, simple, reliable, mapped ignition system)! I haven't heard you whinging that cars don't still have a lever on the steering column to control ignition advance, so presumably there is a point on the evolutionalry scale of the automobile before which even YOU wouldn't want to go - but that's just YOUR personal opinion and preference! I happen to be comfortable with a point further along the scale (as does the vast majority of the motoring public).



What? And they CAN'T see that their car has prematurely gone to the scrapper because of some multi-million pound electrical fault??!

As Dusty says later on, some Italian car manufacturers fell below public expectations on rust-proofing and the public voted with their wallets. Lancia still don't sell in the UK to this day as a result and it took Alfa a VERY long time to get back to where they had been in the UK. (Incidentally, it's also fair to point out that I was told the Italian government imposed regulations on the industry requiring the use of a set percentage of recycled steel at the time. Usual story - politicians trying to appease pressure groups and deciding that they know better than engineers)!

Anyway, I think it illustrates my point perfectly - that customers aren't as daft as you seem to think. If they get something that they feel is sub-standard, they won't buy it. IF they felt the same way as you about gadgets and gizmos, then I'm sure there would be a manufacturer (several in the current climate in fact!) BURSTING to try and capture their business!

nice try mole.
i'm hereby giving up on this thread.

(i shall go back to doing my job which is to provide the systems that the vehicle manufacturers ask for, presumably because they find having those systems makes their cars sell better for some inexplicable reason)

There is quite a big difference between the expectations of buyers of new cars and buyers of used cars. If you are buying a car and only expect to use it for a couple of years then the fact that all the new features you crave are going to make the car unmaintainable after ten years is going to mean diddly squat to you.

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

nice try.
enjoy the discussion.

It's because they've all been BRAINWASHED I tell you!!! The evil emperor of the pan-galactic federation of personal transport manufacturers and purveyors has seized control of their minds...

Muuaaahhhaaaaa!

It's good you admit that.



We know that, so there's no debate, is there? That is what they want. They said so on the radio. And expensive repairs will certainly cause it, so why argue? We all know they are at it, don't we?



Indeed - it's rather more difficult to see (or remember) a car which no longer exists. Should makers focus on political lobbying and expensive repairs to put cars in the scrapper? Or should the engineers focus mostly on durability, usability, maintainability... let us know your thoughts.

Remember Mole - it's you who brought up "conspiracies", no one else has IIRC.

PS: I some to have caused some consternation, but please rest assured that I'm only stating the obvious. There's nothing new in using "new technology", and it's no surprise that new technology is broken, unreliable and harder to fix. It's just the way it is. It's also no surprise that industry exploits that - it's the system we live in.

So let's look at what we know. We know they loved to make cars that rusted out, but drivers hated it. We should know (!) that unnecessary technology and "style" is the new rust - they have to replace rust with something, or cars would last forever. And we know that they are lobbying to have cars scrapped early and needlessly.

So, something has to give - durability. Car makers hate having to make long lasting cars, like light bulb makers hate making long lasting bulbs. It's the way of the world, Mole.

That's the point - there would certainly be no "planned obsolescence" if it made sales go down!

Yes, that' the "bottom line". Doubtless this "credit crunch" is going to affect consumer decisions and although it's going to mean some pain for the auto industry, I think a bit of a shift towards sustainability might not be a bad thing. Trouble is, it takes at least 5 years to bring a new model to market so it's going to be a long time before we see decisions taken today turning into cars in the showroom.

I was pondering today, in fact, as I took the kids to school and bounced over several speed humps:

The suspension bushes on my wife's car are all stuffed now - knocking and squeaking like a good 'un, it is. One of my earliest cars was a Citroen DS - a car with a FEARSOME reputation for what some might call needless complexity, poor maintainability and yet not a microprocessor in sight! Citroen's (very game!) attempt at an automated manual transmission with a dry-plate clutch (which manufacturers are only just starting to sell in significant numbers today) was entirely mechanically and hydraulically controlled. Didn't work that well either, I have to say! The "harness" of pipes going into the top of the gearbox (if you ever got to SEE the top of the gearbox!) was something to behold and maintenance was NOT a regular DIY proposition!

As with the rusty Italian cars of the 80s, the buying public voted with their wallets. In fact, there is a long history of cars that have been deemed undesirable by the buying public and the upshot of that story is that Peugeot (purveyores of famously "meat-and-two veg" cars!) now own Citroen. The more I think about it, the more I think the "public want what the public get" argument is bogus. People (for the most part) are content with what's on offer.

Getting back to my DS, it didn't have any rubber bushes in its suspension. Every joint was either a ball-and-socket joint or a pair of taper roller bearings (front wishbones, rear trailing arms - the lot)! I NEVER had to change one - EVER. Didn't even have to take a shim out, in fact! Surely that would appeal to Abercrombie and Dusty? n' est ce pas?

OK, the bearings probably cost about a tenner a pair compared to about £2 for a rubber bush, but although the car was more expensive initially, you'd eventually get your money back by never having to replace one(leaving aside all the other things that could go wrong with a DS and cost you a fortune at any rate)!

Unfortunately, the DS - while undoubtedly brilliant at absorbing large bumps in the road, was pretty lousy from a road noise, vibration and harshness point of view. To my mind, it let the car down against things like Jags and big Rovers of the day- neither of which could hold a candle to its ride quality but, overall, were nicer places to be...

...So, roll forwards the clock and Manufacturer X brings out a car with no rubber bushes. In his advertising blurb he says "It might cost you a bit more to buy, but you'll never have to change one!"...

...The the magazines get hold of it and slate it for being harsh and noisy (oh, and expensive).

That's commercial hari kari! (which, I think, brings us back to your point. Hardly ANYBODY buys a new car with the intention of keeping it forever)!

It's the term I have chosen to assign to what I think you're telling us is the reason why the vast majority of people continue to buy cars that don't conform to YOUR idea of what a good car should be. Feel free to choose a different one if you like!

Yes, we should. I have a long phrase for it - it's the imbalance created by the disparity in lobbying force between big organisations and private individuals. Ministers are bombarded with bullshit from the makers, by PR professionals and lawyers, but they otherwise exist in a bubble. It creates something akin to a conspiracy, where the nexus is the Minister himself. So let's call it a political nexus, where the voters are ignored. Mad laws (like Tessa Jowell's gambling law) come about because of it, and the Bank of England trusted bankers (of all people!) because of it. It's a big flaw in our system, and it distorts power.

That's why I push back. Never trust anything you read in the press - that's part of the nexus too, isn't it?

PS: I should add, at this point, that the Internet is part of the solution. At least we can discuss the state of things openly. Information is the key thing - if you are right, there should be no problem bringing the technology secrets into the public domain. Let's play the discussion:

I believe the DS actually came in two flavours, the bells and whistle one and one that looked the same but was rather more basic under the skin. I dont know what the relative fates of the diferent variants was though.

Pretty cars though!



Basically, I am not opposed to new technology, I am opposed to the ABUSE of new technology.

Item. Toyota yaris with auto-clutch manual gearbox varient. (since you mention it)

Clutch actuator failure. There are two possible faults. The "Sphere" (like on a citroen) or the controll unit.

The only way you can test the sphere is by substitution (when I last looked this was £400 flaming quid, though that was a couple of years ago)

If that doent fix it, you have to replace the controll unit. Now, though the sphere is available without the controll unit, the controll unit is NOT available without the sphere another £800!!

So one has to advise customer that "worst case scenario" is likly to be £1200 (or near enough) which includes an unwanted pressure sphere (which cannot be returned for credit because it was special order/been used)

All to replace a £10 cable!

Now, I have no objection to having an auto-clutch in principle. Wht I object to is the way the manufacturers seem to use this technology to control the life cycle of the vehicle. I am sure, that on average, these systems might last 10-15 year without issue. But failure will almost certainly scrap any yarris over 8 years old! even if there is nothing else wrong with it!


Another example. Nice little Nissan Almira, perfect condition but ABS light on. New NSF wheel sensor bneeded. Now this is JUST an simple inductive sensor, nothing complex. Yet Nisan want £400 flaming quid for it! This is clearly "priced to encourage scrapping" on any older vehicle. (It actually has a Bosch part no on it but the number is not available for general release. Vauxhaul do the same thing with their small diesel engines. AE could make new psitons for then for £50 (or less) but vauxhal wont release the design and thus hold the price at nearer £400 each! Now, why do you thingk they would want to do that?)

Now, what really rankles is that I doubt if the "factory gate" cost of the Toyota assembly is more than £50, (if that) The Nissan wheel sensor probabally no more than 50P!

Why do the manufacturers charge so much then??

A) because they can
b) because it suits there business model to have a range of system critical spares priced such that they will never actually be used on any car more than 10 years old in order to ensure a continued demand for new product.

The built in obsilessance isnt so much about building stuff to fail. Its about making it too expensive to fix when it does! Remember, back in the 70's people would carry on with mechanical repairs (up to and including exchange engines) as long as there was a body shell left to bolt it onto because it wasnt particularly expensive to do so. They would only be scrapped when it was physically not possible to carry on repairing them!

This is what I am objecting too. The (undoubted) improvements in build quality and materials shuld be yeilding vehicles that last almost indefinatly, yet they only (on average) last two years or so longer than back in the late seventies when they fell to bits after 12 years

Now, I accept that if the ease and low cost of repair of 70's cars was combined with 2008 build quality then the industry would have big problems since ther would be almost no demand for new cars. (since once everybody who wanted one had one, you would only be needing to replace write offs as a result of accidents.)

This would undobtedly be "Interesting" Our current economic models (And indeed, political ones too) would have great difficulty coping with a "Durable" socioty. But perhaps with the dwindeling availability of high grade mineral resourses (Everybody bangs on about energy, but energy isnt really the big problem) a shift over to a more durable socioty is needed, we need economists to think about how an economy would function where nothing ever wears out and/or is indefinatly repairable .


.

_________________
"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

Yes, "dumb planned obsolesce" (Mole's rust) has been on the shit list for years, but now the fight is against "cunning planned obsolesce".

A lot will have to change soon. The start might be this year, or the next decade, but bring it on. I don't know when those ideas you have laid out will take hold. But that's exactly where it runs, in the long term. Any car firm that can't get with the programme has to be allowed to die out, Detroit style.

PS:

You know, think how it must feel to be on the assembly line making stuff that you know is substandard. What would it be like to work on a make-work project for the government, producing stuff that wears out quick so you can be paid to make some more? What a waste of a working lifetime - who would get out of bed for that? Picking up litter and dog poo is more productive.

I touched on this a few pages ago in this very thread. Twenty odd years ago I had a Vauxhall Viva which I maintained with a Haynes manual, a selection of the usual tools, and a huge chunk of ingenuity whenever I came up against something the manual didn't cover. Which was quite often, usually in respect of diagnosing problems.

Despite only having covered about 50k miles there was an apparently never ending queue of problems and failures, eg clutch, carburettor, ignition system, starter motor, alternator, tappets, electrical ancillaries, brakes, wheel bearings etc. This was the minor stuff, and was set against a background of steadily creeping rust and an engine that was set to be life expired within the next 10k miles (and it lived up to its reputation). All of this was to continue to keep alive a car that was pretty basic and primitive to drive by the standards of today, had very poor performance and not very good economy - about 35mpg during the occasional moments of harmony when carb, plugs, tappets, ignition were all on song.

Now I have an ageing BMW that has covered 3 times the miles, and is on the face of it hideously complex. Yet most of the stuff I used to spend my evenings scrabbling about with are now dealt with by "set and forget" electronics and never need touching - they just work. I admit I have had various problems with the car, as you'd expect with any car that has covered so many miles, but there are a myriad of internet fora out there where you can download instructions, manuals, diagrams, parts lists etc, and post specific questions that usually get answered quickly and accurately.

Yes, stuff like CAN bus can be a problem, but this is not really an issue with over-complex underlying technology. Quite frankly it's 70's stuff - it's a two wire 9,600 baud serial bus for pity's sake. No, it's usually mechanical failures due to the fact that it's all engineered down to a minimum cost to satisfy our requirement for cheap cars. In all likelyhood most failures can be diagnosed by the same solid basic skills that would have kept a Ford Escort running thirty years ago, perhaps supplanted with a used laptop for £150 from ebay. Yes you might dick about with it for an hour or two to find the location where the cabling has chafed through, but while doing that it's worth noting that you aren't spending hours trying to get all 8 tappets to cease rattling at the same time, getting a recalcitrant carb to give a tick over without sooting the plugs up, yet still start from cold; cure the perpetual drip-drip of oil from the front oil seal of a crappy 3 bearing crank engine; trying to get an ignition advance setting that keeps within the boundaries of rabid overheating and "pinking". And so on.

No. Give me the modern stuff and the internet any day of the week!


Can't help you with that specific question, but I dare say half an hour spent on the web looking for a Renault forum would see you a long way towards having a concise answer to your query.

_________________
CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!