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 Post subject: Re: Uninsured Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 18:59 
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Depending on where you look, there is a different slant:

Quote:
4 September 2007

Admiral Reports Record Interim Profits & Strong Turnover Growth
Admiral Group plc (“Admiral” or “the Group”) today announces a strong interim result with a profit before tax of £86.3 million for the six months to 30 June 2007, an increase of 26% over the same period in 2006. Group turnover, comprising total premiums written, gross other income and investment income, rose 16% to £417.8 million.

2007 Interim Results Highlights

Profit before tax up 26% at £86.3 million (H1 2006: £68.7 million)

Total interim dividend of 20.6p, up 70% (H1 2006: 12.1p)

Group turnover up 16% at £417.8 million (H1 2006: £359.2 million)

Vehicle count up 16% to 1.4 million (H1 2006: 1.2 million)

Profit from ancillary products and services up 15% to £37.7m (H1 2006: £32.9 million)
Confused.com made a profit of £19.7 million (H2 2006: £14.3 million)

Employee Share Scheme – approximately £3m worth of free shares will be shared amongst 2,000 staff based on the H1 2007 result



Quote:
March 31, 2008
Co-op general insurance records 50% rise in profit
by Gill Montia

Story link: Co-op general insurance records 50% rise in profit

Co-operative Insurance’s general insurance division will be reporting 2007 profit in excess of £500 million this week, a 50% rise on 2006.

The impressive increase comes even after the insurer settled flood claims to the value of £36 million and marks the completion of a successful modernisation of the general business, prior to which it appears to have belonged more in an episode of Life on Mars than in the modern insurance sector.

According to David Neave, director of general insurance for Co-operative Financial Services: “The rating system was desperately out of date. The claims operation was run out of 18 offices; it wasn’t based on anything much more sophisticated than manila envelopes.”

Mr Neave joined the business in 2005 from Royal & Sun Alliance, since when he has been eradication inefficiencies and changing a system of tied financial advisers and agents.

The Co-op now sells its policies through business partners and via the telephone and Internet, whilst maintaining a small direct salesforce.

In recent years, the group has gained a reputation for its ethical stance and continues to develop products that reward eco-conscious customers.

In 2006, it launched a motor-insurance policy that offset 20% of a car’s carbon-dioxide emissions and there are plans to extend this to all Co-op motor policies.




Quote:
Beware insurer tricks on car write-offs
James Coney, Daily Mail
20 February 2008
Reader comments (7) | Chat | Deals
Drivers are furious that insurers are slashing thousands of pounds from payments for written-off cars.

The insurance industry has clear guidelines for dealing with write-offs but your stories have convinced us these are being abused. Money Mail has pledged to tackle the Dirty Dozen tricks used to extract cash from your pocket. And this insurance scam is driving you round the bend, as James Coney reveals.

When your car is written off, the pain of any injuries can be compounded by the dirty tricks of insurers.
The rules for dealing with written-off cars are clear. Industry body the Association Of British Insurers says car insurance companies must offer you a proper payout for the value of your car.
This means you must be offered a sum that will allow you to buy a similar car in a similar condition in your local area. All the insurer should deduct is the excess you agreed to when taking the policy.
The problem is that car prices are negotiable, and it is rare for the driver and insurer to agree on what a car is worth.

Insurers play on this. They know you are likely to need a new car quickly so pile on the pressure to get you to accept a payment.

They have a series of tricks at their disposal to get their way:


TRICK 1: THE CRAFTY OFFER

The insurance company offers a payout that is close enough to the actual value of your car to be realistic, but low enough to save it a few hundred pounds.
Frequently this will be a trade price. This breaks ABI guidelines because it is not a price a normal person could realistically expect to pay.
Sometimes the settlement will be based on a general valuation of your type of car that gives no consideration to your region or the season.
In some parts of the country certain vehicles will cost more. For instance, Land Rovers may be in higher demand in rural areas, so the cost is likely to be higher.
Some cars have seasonal price variations.
Soft-top cars get more expensive in spring and summer, so you should not accept a valuation based on what it would be worth in February.


TRICK 2: THE CHEQUE

Frequently the insurer will phone telling you the car is a writeoff.
Then a cheque with their estimated value will arrive in the post.
This is normally accompanied by a letter saying that by cashing the cheque you are agreeing to the settlement and cannot challenge it.
Insurers hope that by avoiding any discussion drivers will think the settlement cannot be negotiated.
This has caught out a number of Money Mail readers, who believe they have been left with no recourse to complain having cashed the cheque without realising the consequences. Unfortunately this is grey area. The Financial Ombudsman Service expects insurers to be up front about the implications of cashing a cheque.

But beware — drivers who do cash in a payment are usually seen as accepting the settlement.


TRICK 3: COURTESY CAR

Most insurance companies will offer a courtesy car when yours is written off, usually for a fixed period such as a fortnight. Don't be fooled into thinking you will be able to have a courtesy car until your dispute is settled.
Normally four days after your settlement cheque arrives you will be expected to hand it back whether you accept the payment or not.
This pressures drivers into accepting the payout because they need transport.

TRICK 4: THE CONDITION REPORT
The condition of a car can be a stumbling block. Readers have told how insurers have refused to believe a car is in good nick, or claim it was more damaged than it actually was.
The Financial Ombudsman says if an insurer tries to deviate from the value shown in a car price guide then in any dispute it would ask for specific evidence as to why they felt this was appropriate A spokesman said: 'It is expected that cars driven for a number of years will show signs of wear and tear. We would not expect to make deductions for minor imperfections that have been as a result of wear and tear.' Be wary of engineers appointed or employed by the insurance companies.

The Ombudsman has seen examples where engineers employed by insurers have put a car into a lower insurance category for relatively minor marks or dents to a vehicle.

However, you need to be realistic.

Cars can devalue quickly. Your expectations must be based on the current retail value, not on what you paid for the vehicle.
Some drivers get quite attached to their cars, but this 'love' doesn't mean you should get more money.
Likewise, your own improvements do not necessarily add value. In fact, some modifications can decrease it — 'go faster' stripes on a family saloon, for instance.


TRICK 5: MAKING YOU PAY

Normally, if you complain enough, the insurance company will offer a slightly increased settlement. But this can be way off the amount you still expect.
It is then that the insurer offers the help of an independent assessor.
You will be told that, for a small non-refundable fee, you can employ an assessor to value your car. The problem is that most insurers know drivers will be so fed up with the situation by now that they relent. Many also don't want the added cost.
The assessor's verdict also comes with a clause. If they find the valuation to be below yours, you will only get the original settlement offer, and not any further increased offers.

Money Mail readers are sceptical about the independence of these assessors.




And with this as fairly common behaviour from insurance companies, are drivers looking at them rather than the legalities of insurance?

Again not condoning the practice but if drivers see insurance companies ramping up premiums year after year when they have no points or claims, yet the policies are providing less and less cover and the insurers are offering a worse service, I can see why some drivers chose to drive uninsured. There is a perception regarding insurance and insurance companies that they are less than honest or 'fair' in the way they treat policy holders.

If I, as a consumer am treated badly or less than honestly I will not buy that product or from that company, I can see that some drivers are reacting similarly to insurance companies, especially if they have been claim free for years then had an accident to find the insurers acting against them, If he doesn't mind Lum has posted about his problems with insurers, whilst Lum is a law abiding driver and continues to pay his insurance, how many drivers are saying not bloody likely and dropping off?

It's something that I'd be very interested to know, as it seems that there are more drivers who fall into the ' normally law abiding' group that are being caught uninsured. Why is this? Understanding the reasoning behind a driver's decision to be uninsured could go a long way to finding a solution that has the right effect.

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 Post subject: Re: Uninsured Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 08:51 
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You cannot have everything your own way.....
The last time I looked, profit was not a dirty word.
Grossly excessive profit is, but motor insurance does not make "grossly excessive" profit: in fact it hardly makes one at all.
They charge young drivers a higher rate because of several factors.
Age.
Inexperience.
The fact that statistically they ARE more liable to have accidents.
Again: why should safe drivers with a low-accident history have to pay higher premiums than they do to subsidise bad drivers ?
Of course, there are young drivers who turn the argument about. Why should we pay a thousand a year while others pay hundreds.
The answer is easy, the "hundreds" driver has a history of no (or low) accidents.
The younger driver has, on average, a history of bad driving, aggressive driving, drunk driving and drugged driving.
When they have had a provable history their insurance gets lower. Everybody has been there.
Once you let the gov in on the deal, your costs will go through the roof. The system used to collect the "toll insurance" will need paying for (look at the LCG....)
And the NCB will go away pretty fast...replaced by a blanket charge....which will increase in price.....rapidly.
As I have said before, you will continue to pay for others insurance anyway.....just as you are now.
So, no change.
Or is this just another "I have to pay it so should they" ?

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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 Post subject: Re: Uninsured Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:18 
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Location: Sydney, Australia
Abercrombie wrote:
MFL wrote:

I thought so ...
you have used a partial quote ...


Never mind all that stuff. Let's keep the moral hazard in place. If we give kids free insurance, more of them will drive (cost influences behavior, as you say above). And (according to premium rates) kids are the worst drivers, so we should be minimising the number on the roads.

Money makes the world go around. "Free insurance" isn't free at all - taxpayers end up paying for it. And the people it benefits the most are the worst (most risky) drivers, and the ones it benefits the least are the safe, low risk drivers. Those are facts that can't be swished away with complaints about "partial quotes".

PS: We seem to have started off on a sour note. Sorry about all that stuff, you know. Perhaps I was a bit curt.[/quote]
:x
You are correct in that you have started a sour note with me but it was not about curtness but rather cuteness - in the Irish sense. Twice I have had to ask you NOT to take a partial sentence as a quote and twist it out of context. To me that is far worse than an ad hominem attack - it is a personal insult of the type that is used by zealots in their cause.

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 Post subject: Re: Uninsured Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:20 
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MFL wrote:
it was not about curtness but rather cuteness - in the Irish sense.


Thanks for your kind words! But would free insurance result in better driving?

PS: sorry about all that other stuff. It's nice having you around, and I'm sure things
will be better from now on.

PPS: I think the difficult arose due to my propensity to break quotes down to
their "units of meaning". Parts of a sentence can be orthogonal, although others
may choose to do things differently, of course.


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 Post subject: Re: Uninsured Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:10 
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Abercrombie wrote:
MFL wrote:
it was not about curtness but rather cuteness - in the Irish sense.


Thanks for your kind words! But would free insurance result in better driving?

PS: sorry about all that other stuff. It's nice having you around, and I'm sure things
will be better from now on.

PPS: I think the difficult arose due to my propensity to break quotes down to
their "units of meaning". Parts of a sentence can be orthogonal, although others
may choose to do things differently, of course.

:)
Thank you for your acknowledgement. I am sure that things will be better.

I know of no evidence on the issue of "Free" insurance affecting driving style. While it is correct to raise the issue my observations over the years do not indicate a nexus - fear of impact is more important. Raising an issue enables it to be examined but if it cannot be substantiated it remains a curiosity not a reality.

There is nothing free in this world - just the nexus between payment and event is not always clear.

While breaking down passages of prose to component parts or units of meaning is a normal and sound practice, isolation of units out of the context of the whole is generally misleading. Its like putting a flash paint job on a crap car - its still a crap car and if you try to emulate what a great car will do it will bite you.

On insurance; if the objective is to minimise the impact of the uninsured then there is no point in getting tied up in the fine detail of who pays what. The good guys who are insured pay a premium loading for those who are not covered anyway so take the broader view and you may find an acceptable solution.

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 Post subject: Re: Uninsured Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 14:40 
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MFL wrote:
Raising an issue enables it to be examined but if it cannot be substantiated it remains a curiosity not a reality.


I share Warren Buffet's notion. Fear (and greed) work like a like a voting machine in the short term and like a weighing machine in the long term. In the short term, immediate concerns (impact etc.) take priority. In the longer term, issues like costs take priority. You can't separate one out.

MFL wrote:
There is nothing free in this world - just the nexus between payment and event is not always clear.


That sounds like a Buffetism as well. You could be describing credit default swaps! Again, the nexus between payment and event is not always clear immediately, but it is far clearer with the help of hindsight. Deliberately munging the risk to make it impossible to account for it properly just blurs the nexus between payment and event even more. The paper work would look better by having less uninsured drivers, but more “bad driver” kids would hit the roads, and things would be more dangerous. That's no benefit at all.

MFL wrote:
If the objective is to minimise the impact of the uninsured then there is no point in getting tied up in the fine detail of who pays what. The good guys who are insured pay a premium loading for those who are not covered anyway so take the broader view and you may find an acceptable solution.


That isn't the objective of insurance, though. I'd say the object of insurance is to indemnify the person who purchases it, against risks that they themselves cause. The contract shouldn't even involve the "uninsured". They are still liable for negligence, whether they can rely on a policy to help them or not. If they insist on being negligent, we should remove their power to be negligent, IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Uninsured Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 16:30 
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I pay a premium loading of about 20 quid a year on my insurance, to cover those who do not have any and get involved in an accident.
To have the insurance paid by a further tax on fuel and have no annual premium would cost me a further £65.00. I have considered this carefully, and can find no way that a NCB could be allowed for.
For the insurance tax to be paid on fuel would also mean a rather dramatic increase on my insurance, which is low because I have NO points and NO accidents (as yet).
So, I'll stick with paying the 20 quid a year indirectly (if you don't mind)
I'd like to remind you that uninsured drivers are ALREADY covered (indirectly)(which a fuel-tax insurance would be) by you.
So, either way you pay.
The fuel tax way you pay a lot more, and a lot of people get very rich as a side effect (london con charge.......)
What's the betting crapita get the contract ?

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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 Post subject: Re: Uninsured Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 16:39 
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jomukuk wrote:
I'd like to remind you that uninsured drivers are ALREADY covered... by you.


That is the very worst thing to do. We steal £20 per year from good drivers, and give it to shitty ones in order to provide them with free cover. What a reward for obeying the law, eh? What dunder head thought of it? Now, instead of going to prison, the free insurance pays up and the wastrels get a slap on the wrist. And the driving standards collapse.


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 Post subject: Re: Uninsured Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 17:19 
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Abercrombie wrote:
jomukuk wrote:
I'd like to remind you that uninsured drivers are ALREADY covered... by you.


That is the very worst thing to do. We steal £20 per year from good drivers, and give it to shitty ones in order to provide them with free cover. What a reward for obeying the law, eh? What dunder head thought of it? Now, instead of going to prison, the free insurance pays up and the wastrels get a slap on the wrist. And the driving standards collapse.


So instead, everyone pays indirectly by ANOTHER means to insure [uninsured] drivers.
ie: they pay for the shitty drivers insurance so that they do not have to pay for it....doubtless, they'll then steal cars just to get the fuel free....so they won't even pay the pump tax.
And how is indirect insurance going to improve driving standards ?
So good drivers who do more than average mileage pay a dramatically increased insurance to pay for those who won't pay now ?
Sorry, this is sounding remarkably like road pricing coming through the back door , the more you drive the more you pay, and the more organisations like crapita get rich[er]
How about we go to the nor insurance idea, you have a tracker unit built into the car that records mileage/time/place and date and then you get a bill for same ?
All this stupid idea will do is to provide insurance for those that do not have it, cheaply.
Those who cannot GET insurance will still be uninsured anyway....and no doubt the uninsured drivers compensation scheme will be ended as well.....

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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