Safe Speed Forums

Don't worry, I'm not up for this! Just seemed like this was the most appropriate forum.

Was staying with friends in Barnstaple over new year. About 3-4am on new years' day I realised I'd left my sleeping bag in the car which was parked outside my friend's house. As I went out to retrieve it (I was well over the limit at this point and had absolutely no intention of driving!) my friend said "watch out for coppers, they'll do you if you go near the car in that state".

I've heard this from another friend in Liverpool as well, apparently a friend of his was done when a copper saw him retrieve something from the car whilst he was several times over the limit (again with no intention of driving). Can't remember if they dropped it in the end though but he certainly ended up getting arrested for it.

Anyone on the legal side care to comment? Surely common sense would suggest that the drink driving offence takes place once the driver sets the vehicle in motion? Or at the very least starts the engine? But from what I've heard apparently not.

If I ever need to retrieve anything from the car when I've had a drink I always approach from either the passenger side or - if I want something from the boot - the rear of the car, that way there is clearly no demonstratable intent to drive...

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Magistrates rule #1: "Never let justice get in the way of a conviction."

I'm not a legal expert but "drunk in charge of a vehicle" does not require driving to have occurred.

If you approach it with the keys you may be at risk.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

If you are at the car with the keys you are at risk of an "Excess alcohol (in charge)" prosecution. The law was brought in after somebody was trying to drive, but was so drunk he couldn't get the key in the ignition and was found not guilty of drink driving.

In your situation I hope you would not have been prosecuted, but if you had been you probably had a good defence as someone else knew you were not intending to drive. People in this situation will almost always be arrested, if only to ensure they don't drive.

In the end its down to what the police and the courts will believe, although the advantage lies with you as you only need to raise a reasonable doubt.

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I am not a lawyer and can't give legal advice. I do have experience of the day to day working of courts and use that knowledge to help where possible. I do not represent any official body and post as an individual.

This one has bothered me for some while which is why I usually bike to the pub

But this is the scenario. You come out of the pub, 5 miles from homee, and realise that you are much too drunk to drive. So you open the car, crawl into the passenger seat with the keys in your pocket and fall asleep. Are you in danger of being prosecuted? You fear that you might be so you don't do that. Instead you crawl into a nearby barn, burrrow into the hay and fall asleep with the keys in your pocket. Are you in danger of being prosecuted? You fear that you might be so you don't do that. Instead you stagger the file miles home and fall asleep under the duvet fully clothed wit the keys in your pocket Are you in danger of being prosecuted?

At what stage are you deemed to be no longer "charge"?

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

What would happen if I was very drunk and got into the passenger seat with one set of keys in my pocket while my stone cold sober wife was standing on the pavement about to get into the driver's seat with the other set of keys? Who is in charge of the vehicle, me in the car or her on the pavement?

Possibly. Cases like this come to court every now and again and sometimes result in a conviction. Of course if the pub car park is locked at night then it is no longer a public place and then there is no risk of conviction.


Probably not as you have distanced yourself from the car. "Distanced" meaning taken steps to do something which could not be taken as getting ready to drive or likely to drive.


How long is a piece of string.

The defendant is entitled to to be found not guilty if he can establish that there was no likelihood of him driving whilst he probably had an alcohol level over the limit. He only has to do this on the balance of probabilities.

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I am not a lawyer and can't give legal advice. I do have experience of the day to day working of courts and use that knowledge to help where possible. I do not represent any official body and post as an individual.

It would be very difficult, under those circumstances, to prove that you intended to drive. On the other hand they would want to see proof that your wife is insured to drive the car.........................

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I am not a lawyer and can't give legal advice. I do have experience of the day to day working of courts and use that knowledge to help where possible. I do not represent any official body and post as an individual.

Which of course is potentially illegal in itself, and very possibly dangerous to yourself and others as well.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Section 30 Road Traffic Act 1988 says: "It is an offence for a person to ride a cycle on a road or other public place when unfit to ride through drink or drugs - that is to say - is under the influence of a drink or a drug to such an extent as to be incapable of having proper control of the cycle" That is an entirely differant and rather more sensible law than motoring law where it is the prescence of the alcholol rather than its effect which is the decider.

More than one pint of strong beer would stop me from driving but would have no effect on my ability to properly control my bicycle: nor indeed on my ability to walk where similar laws apply.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Any alcohol impairs judgement, slows reactions and reduces hand/eye coordination. Any.

Are you seriously advocating and admitting drink cycling?

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

Yes but only up to th e point where it prevents me from controlling the machine. I also plead guilty to a second charge of drink walking.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Ahh, so you'd be using that impaired judgement to assess your impaired control then?

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

No. I use the experience of years. Just like you do when you decide it is safe to exceed the speed limit.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Not when I've been drinking I don't!!!

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

It is not against the law to be impaired by alcohol when a pedestrian, though, only to be "drunk and disorderly". The law is not the same for pedestrians and pedal cyclists.

And you must be the David Brown of High Peak who wrote the following letter in a recent issue of the CAMRA newspaper What's Brewing:


Now I would not argue in favour of a fixed drink-drive limit for cyclists, nor would I dispute that a cyclist may reasonably allow himself a little more latitude with regards to alcohol than a driver. But to suggest that a pedal cycle is an acceptable means of transport for a pub crawl really is grossly irresponsible. Your judgment will be significantly impaired well before you are physically unable to ride the machine, and this may result in accidents involving other vehicles, not just yourself.

There's a letter in reply to this in the January issue that I may post later.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

No - stupid remark by me - sorry. But seriously what is the essential differance between cycling home after a couple of pints and walking home in the same condition? Or do you just dissaprove of drinking altogether?

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Now the "public place" posting above leads me to something interesting.

If my car is parked on my driveway (private land) and I get in and start the engine - but don't move the car off the driveway so it's still on private land - whilst over the limit, where do I stand?

Again for the record not that I plan to do such a thing, just curious as to the law.

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Magistrates rule #1: "Never let justice get in the way of a conviction."

A public place for motoring offence purposes is "a place to which the public have access, at the relevant time whether on payment or not". So it could be argued that if your drive doesn't have gates it is open to the public. For visitors to ring the bell to see if you are at home, if for no other purpose. I doubt any police officer would do any more than take your keys and advise you to go indoors.

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I am not a lawyer and can't give legal advice. I do have experience of the day to day working of courts and use that knowledge to help where possible. I do not represent any official body and post as an individual.

There's also (presumably) a line at which your vehicle becomes a camper van and it becomes ok?

I've certainly slept in a van full of duvets at festivals/parties etc. while too drunk to drive; this was presumably illegal. If I'd been in a camper van this would be legal, right?

It makes no difference if it's a camper van - if it's parked on a road or other public place, you remain in charge of it if sleeping in it.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed