Safe Speed Forums

Over the past year or so i've noticed there are more and more people who seem to drive at below the posted speed limit where on rural roads, in my opinion, it is perfectly safe to go faster.

I can KIND of understand people driving at the posted speed limit, in some way. If a person feels that breaking a law is something they do not want to do then fair enough, it is their choice not to break it.

What i can't understand is people who drive at 50mph on an NSL road for no reason. I'm talking about perfectly straight roads with high visibility, no turnings or anything that would, or could, cause any reason to slow down. These are the same people who do 40mph in a 30mph, when there IS cause to slow down.

In my 60 mile commute every morning, i can pretty much guarantee i will get stuck behind a car doing 40-50mph, causing a massive tailback. This in turn (understandably) frustrates other road users causing some dodgy overtaking manouvres just to get in front.

Now, i can think of numerous reasons why these people do the speed they do:

1. They are so scared of being caught breaking the law, they stick to WAY below the limit just so there is little chance of being caught. This doesn't explain why they do 40mph in a 30mph.

2. They are not confident enough to go any faster. In which case, they shouldn't be driving on these type of roads if at all.

3. To conserve fuel. Maybe the credit crunch and the petrol price increases have done what the government has failed to do with speed cameras; slow people down.

4. They do it on purpose. Unlikely, but maybe some people like causing an obstruction to other users.


I agee that these are generalisations, but with more and more people doing the same thing i can't help wondering if it me at fault.

I hope that it isn't the first reason, beacuse that means that the government is winning; causing people to slow down through scare tactics.

Just an observation...

Personally I think the 50 everywhere drivers have dumbed down thier driving. they have killed thier speed, thier attention, thier observation... everything. So in risky locations the still barge through at 50

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

£1.10/litre has much to do with it. 18 mths ago I was driving at normal speed and getting 34mpg ish. Now fuel is so expensive I've backed off and see 45mpg around town with the air con running, not bad for a 10 year old petrol. The adjustment in speed is quite difficult, I prefer to drive at a more natural spee, but needs must. I haven't crashed any less often.

If you think that people are driving more slowly and less miles to save fuel, will this dramatically reduce the Scamera Partnerships takings and cause them to close? Will KSIs plummet?

If cameras are then uneconomic and are removed, who will have won?

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Some years ago I was of the same opinion, how can a nice straight open road present any form of hazard?

I was following a close friend and his girlfriend down to Cornwall, we were on the A37 intent on joining the M5 at Taunton. We had left early and there were very few vehicles in any direction. I was about 75 yards behind with my wife and two dogs, both our cars were touching @ 67mph, the posted limit being 60.

It was about 07:05, bright early morning sunshine lighting the carriageway, unlimited visibility, the road was dry and in excellent repair, either side was broken hedgerow bordering on fields. There was one car a long way back and nothing approaching.

I remember having a conversation with my wife about what a glorious morning it was as up ahead literally from nowhere, a young deer appeared from the right hand side - it moved with such incredible speed that it was in front of my friend's car in the blink of an eye.

It is extremely easy to say what you'd do in a similar situation, but reflex is a powerful response, like blinking when someone claps their hands next to your face. It is true what they say, such events take place in slow motion. My friend's car turned right attempting to avoid hitting the animal, but he clipped the back end of it just as he applied the brakes. If you have ever witnessed anything similar you will know what can happen, the back half of the deer exploded and there was a huge shower of fluid and entrails which plumed into the air. My friend's car went into a sliding skid and rolled over seven times, killing him instantly. His girlfriend lived for nearly a week, but finally died from internal injuries - she had been wearing a seatbelt and had passenger airbags.

The hospital consultant said 20mph slower would probably have saved them both. The attending traffic officers all agreed that speed was the single determining factor of the severity of the accident.

Consequently, I have never once driven over 50mph and for the sake of arriving anywhere a few minutes earlier that is the way it will stay..

..there is no such concept as a 'perfectly safe road'.

Your choice, as long as you have no objection to others going faster.

[quote="Cashmere Obedience

..there is no such concept as a 'perfectly safe road'.[/quote]


But observation of signs helps reduce the risk factor ( slight modification or extention to COAST ).You say a deer appeared - any other area of the country that I've driven that has had deer related accidents has had several at regular intervilles "BEWARE OF DEER " signs .Others - out in open - miles from anywhere -it's where animals roam ( or is that just my perspective ,being a country lad ).
On the avoidance issue(perhaps a subject for another post ) - spent several years in Rhodesia /Zimbabwe and the greatest cause of damage in animal related accidents was loss of control following attempts at avoidance .Those that impacted only suffered frontal damage to the vehicle - hence the necessity for "Bull bars.Those that attempted avoidance inevitably rolled .

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

This well-known article by Paul Ripley is very relevant in this context:

Slow Driving and Safe Driving

There is nothing wrong with driving below the posted speed limit so long as your are alert to the needs of others and do not, either deliberately or unwittingly, end up obstructing them.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Problem is ,that these days,too many mis informed ,poorly equiped drivers are not alert to the needs of others and do wittingly and deliberately obstruct them - quite often with official/semi official approval -i.e the pace driving mentality .
You only have to witness the headlamp flashing road rage that the 20/40anywhere lot indulge in when passed (with great effort ,usually) to see this .

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Cashmere,

Firstly, welcome to SafeSpeed.

Secondly, in my opinion, you have been misled because of your grief about the terrible accident which you were involved in. The cause was not "speeding", it was the deer leaping into the road. It sounds like you were doing something perfectly reasonable in the observed circumstances which thousands of people do every day with no problems. There is a thread on here called Deer Hazard (you can search for it) which is quite relevant.

If you both had been going at the 50mph you suggest and the deer had landed 2 ft in front of your friend's car you would still be in very great trouble. It was just bad luck and, unfortunately, bad stuff happens.

However, I can certainly understand your feelings.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Sorry - looking at my last post - looks like I've missec a few things out

1) - most parts of the UK I've driven on that have an animal problem ( eg deer /cows /sheep etc) have large signs warning drivers of the wildlive .
2) I'm only a country lad - but to me wide open spaces ,trees on side of road - means look out for wild life -ESPECIALLY DEER.
3) IG has a thing going on here - bit called COAST - might help to look at it
4) Something you wouldn't know about - but I spent several years in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe ,where a lot of accicents were from drivers trying to avoid wild (AND THE KUDU IS SOMETHING TO AVOID)the official view - fit bull bars and DON'T take avoiding action - that only leads to roll overs and major incidents .
5) Time to look at what caused the problem - might I suggest driving in open country without observation skills ( Parts of COAST come to mind) be reviewed - not speed ,but inability to lookout for wildlife,and take appriopriate avoidance action

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Its the whole ball of wax. People are chilling out. Saves petrol, wear on the brakes, tyres, steering, shocks and engine, easy driving (less effort) avoids potholes, dogs, kids and tractors, muck on the road and bits of rubbish, etc. More and more people are doing "hypermileing", as they call it in the paper. It keeps the demand for petrol down too, so it's even cheaper for you as well.

Thank you everyone for the welcome.

I strongly disagree, I view speed , or rather 'velocity' as being the single cause of virtually every collision, otherwise every driver would simply bring their vehicle to a safe stop before any impact. Whilst we may be more comfortable assigning reasons 'why' an accident occurs to elements outside our control, it is usually because we are travelling faster than we can safely stop within the distance we can see. My friend died as a result of the speed he was moving at, had he been going slower, he could be alive today. The deer was part of the equation, but speed unquestionably killed him.

The only reason speed cameras don't work is because drivers haven't adapted their behaviour accordingly, it has just become a game of surfing between camera sites and then complaining when they 'accidentally' get caught. We have an incredibly false sense of security that driving a modern car can bring and even back in the eighties Gary Numan summed it up beautifully when he sang, 'Here in my car, I feel safest of all, I can lock all my doors, it's the only way to live - in cars'.

Coincidentally, my wife and I were talking about this at the weekend at the in-laws and my father-in-law recounted the story about how he wrote off a car after hitting a badger at 40mph. There are no warnings signs for such unpredictable creatures and he said it was '..like hitting a bag of wet sand'. Apparently it sheared the radiator in two, cracked the engine block, twisted the steering column, shattered the windscreen and put a big crease in the hood.

As malcolmw said above '...bad stuff happens', but when it does, the slower you are travelling, less injury and less damage will usually result. I am at a loss to explain why everyone complains and wants to raise speed limits and go faster. It is probably just the result of the age we live in, faster, quicker, better, bigger that has spilled into our driving consciousness.

From the description you gave above of the accident, your friend and you WERE travelling at such speed that you could stop within the distance you could see to be clear. This is one of the tenets of safe driving. You cannot reasonably use a car and allow for ANY possible incident which might occur. Almost everyone uses risk management to assess what is reasonable.

Suppose your friend had been going at 50mph, the deer had jumped out a split second later onto his car and caused him to swerve, crash and be killed. Would you advocate not driving above,say, 35mph everywhere? Just because "The hospital consultant said 20mph slower would probably have saved them both" it doesn't mean that this is fact.

It must be terrible to lose someone in this way but you can only mitigate some risks in life, not all.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

You're entitled to think that is the case, and if you feel safer going slowly, then good for you.

But please live and let live with me wanting to go faster.

Hedges are a big problem. Why are there hedges or trees so close to the roads? Look at aerial photos, very often they follow the line of the road but then there's open ground either side! Why can't they be got rid of? Then the animals wouldn't be hiding so close to the road and if there were any about you could actually see them.
At very least we should have verges, proper size ones. That would give extra time to react to deer.
Also you'd have an escape route, somewhere to stop if you need and would be able to let ambulances etc. past easier.
I've been thinking about "the deer issue" quite a bit and from what I can tell the slower you go the more time you are exposed to the danger, plus it takes longer and you can get more tired, the faster you go the less time you spend driving but if you hit a deer you might be worse off. I can't find any way to find the safest point between driving as fast as possible and driving as slow as possible.
Usually I see deer at night. Quite often you can see their eyes for a split second in the distance. I've got used to seeing this and hitting the brake!

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Andrew.

Hedgerows play a huge part in the food chain and national bird numbers have been dramatically reduced as the result of habitat loss and the decline of insects. They also form a naturally soft and cheap screen/barrier/wind break.

One very obvious dichotomy above is thus;

One says '..you are alert to the needs of others', whilst another 'But please live and let live with me wanting to go faster'.

Human beings tend to confuse want and need, and unless the vehicle has sirens and blue lights, I am unable to discern the needs of other drivers. Just because baseball cap wearing Corsa Boy starts flashing me, does he 'need' to get past more than the suited series 5 BMW one?

The majority of people on the road have a grossly inflated perceived sense of urgency and importance, yet in the main is someone in the car bleeding to death or are they are only going to Sainsbury's? If they can overtake me safely, then that's cool but unfortunately our roadways are littered with incredibly bad drivers who view our transport system as a race track, every set of lights a starting grid.

<sigh>

This one's going to run and run....

I don't care how fast you drive......as long as you allow me to pass if I want to go faster. You have to consider if you are going to drive at 50 mph, when the limit is 60 mph. Please please let people past.
Or it lead to drivers taking risks they don’t have to.

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Oct 11 Birmingham Half Marathon. I am running for the British Heart Foundation.
http://www.justgiving.com/Rob-Taylor

Hmm, but the faster you go the larger the area is in front of you where if a deer appears you have no choice but to strike it (and the area in front of you which means you're probably gonna die stretches out too).

I figure going at 20mph means no matter what happens (e.g. the deer comes right out in front of you) you're going to survive any deer strike.

I was driving along a lane once, about 40 and for some reason I slowed right down, I'll never know why, but about 10 seconds later a hole herd of deer came right through the hedge about 15 metres in front of me, and I mean right through it, and it was quite a dense hedge too.

Would be an interesting test to write a computer programme for, simulate driving cars along a road in which "deer" appear randomly in the road.