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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 23:38 
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Safety Engineer wrote:
... I spoke to a few friends who are not drivers, all 5 of them thought that cars took less distance to stop than the highway code distances.


They're right of course! OK, not less than a car length from 30 but pretty much all cars on the roads today can comfortably knock 1/3 or so off the Highway Code distances!


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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 23:57 
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I'd agree with that, the thing that worried me was that they seemed to grossly underestimate how long it takes a car to stop, the 'road safety' advert I mentioned they didn't think was that unrealistic ! :shock: :shock:

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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 08:36 
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Big Tone wrote:
:drink2:


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 08:46 
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Nope, I'm like this when sober too. Probably worse. Drink just makes me :fastasleep:

BTW How come the posted time is always off by an hour? Both the PCs I use have the correct time. :? I can see the wrong time in the top RH corner in fact. Isn't there an auto-update for BST?

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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 09:01 
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Big Tone wrote:
Nope, I'm like this when sober too. Probably worse. Drink just makes me :fastasleep:

BTW How come the posted time is always off by an hour? Both the PCs I use have the correct time. :? I can see the wrong time in the top RH corner in fact. Isn't there an auto-update for BST?


Tone,

It looks as though you haven't changed the clock settings in your user control panel. :)

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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 09:03 
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I don't have to. I'm on the Trust's PC. It says 8:55. I'll do a screen shot if you don't believe me.

8:56 now. Which is the correct time. :?

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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 09:12 
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Big Tone wrote:
I don't have to. I'm on the Trust's PC. It says 8:55. I'll do a screen shot if you don't believe me.

8:56 now. Which is correct.


I'm taking about the user control panel in the safespeed forums (not windows), up on the top left hand side of your screen.

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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 09:24 
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Ah! I didn't have the 'Summer Time/DST is in effect:' tick box ticked to 'yes'

No good being daft if you don't prove it occasionally. :oops:

(Should be the default IMO) Now Johnnytheboy thinks I'm stupid as well as drunk ;)

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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 09:45 
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Big Tone wrote:
Nope, I'm like this when sober too. Probably worse. Drink just makes me :fastasleep:



No offence intended - just the posting time plus the slightly stream-of-conciousness nature of the text reminded me of a man in a pub! :drink:


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 12:29 
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Johnnytheboy wrote:
just the posting time plus the slightly stream-of-conciousness nature of the text reminded me of a man in a pub! :drink:

I wish. If anything I've been more hyper since I stopped but ta for the reply :)

After 12 pages I'm sure the thread's fizzling out now but the bottom line, as I see it, is that you can't tell someone who has lost their child or the 800 supporters that they are actually wrong - it's insensitive. Worse still is the authorities who 'have to do be seen to be doing something', which is no more than exacting revenge on all drivers for a rare incident.

It's like me lobbying to ban all matches because my daughter burnt herself once upon a time. It's mass hysteria really.

See, now I look insensitive. It's a no-win situation.

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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 13:21 
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I wouldn't call you insensitive, however, I was taught on my accident invetigators course that often the most obvious course, the most emotive cause is often wrong, at best it is often only a contributary factor not a casual factor.

Unfortunately, with what we call road safety there are more emotive voices demanding something is done and not enough on the side of hang on, before we do something, lets make sure that we are doing the right thing not a poular or emotive response thing.

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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 21:51 
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Big Tone wrote:
After 12 pages I'm sure the thread's fizzling out now but the bottom line, as I see it, is that you can't tell someone who has lost their child or the 800 supporters that they are actually wrong - it's insensitive. Worse still is the authorities who 'have to do be seen to be doing something', which is no more than exacting revenge on all drivers for a rare incident.

It's like me lobbying to ban all matches because my daughter burnt herself once upon a time. It's mass hysteria really.

See, now I look insensitive. It's a no-win situation.
If we settle for that bottom line, well then, we won't get anywhere.
On the one hand, government and industry can't be insensitive, and on the other hand, that just gives them more experience lying to our faces.
'Exacting revenge on all drivers' is akin to saying 'punishing the reasonable and prudent majority', isn't it?
Safety Engineer wrote:
I wouldn't call you insensitive, however, I was taught on my accident invetigators course that often the most obvious course, the most emotive cause is often wrong, at best it is often only a contributary factor not a casual factor.

Unfortunately, with what we call road safety there are more emotive voices demanding something is done and not enough on the side of, "hang on, before we do something, let's make sure that we are doing the right thing not a popular or emotive response thing.
Contributory, but not causal ... necessary, but not sufficient ... emotional, but not rational ...

Punishing every driver who drives over 20MpH where some child managed to get free of his parents may be more profitable for the government, but it will not going to save as many children's lives as everyone - not just parents and / or pedestrians - exerting more vigilance [than they may want to exert].

How's this for insensitive:
Kidleashes would save more kids lives than 20 MpH would.

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The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 23:37 
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The Rush wrote:
Kidleashes would save more kids lives than 20 MpH would.

True but unprofitable Rush ;)

Actually, maybe not even true bud :!: You may not know it but here in England, the leash is often held by children. Did you know we excel at knocked-up teenage mothers in Europe?

We are the most dysfunctional used and abused country you could wish not to visit in Europe. Desperately hanging on to what we used to be and fooling no-one!

No where else has deployed so many cameras with so little benefit to we 'the people'. But the bu11sh1t goes on ad nauseam while we collectively sit on our hands...


We are made of coal, resting on black gold, surrounded by an ocean of food and yet we are no more than a poor pathetic subservient nation of sheep to Brussels and, I have to say, hanging on to America's apron like a baby sucking on a mother's breast!

Please help - I've lost my identity! Image

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 Post subject: Responses in red ...
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 04:01 
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Big Tone wrote:
The Rush wrote:
Kidleashes would save more kids lives than 20 MpH would.

True but unprofitable Rush ;)
Which is, of course, why it'll never get done.

Actually, maybe not even true bud :!: You may not know it but here in England, the leash is often held by children. Did you know we excel at knocked-up teenage mothers in Europe?
Here, it's actually more likely that the parent would get to hold the leash only long enough for 'Child Protective Services' to use the leash as prima facie evidence of bad parenting.
Besides, even if you have us beat at knocked-up teenage mothers, I'll wager that more of our teen babymamas are blood-related to the father.


We are the most dysfunctional used and abused country you could wish not to visit in Europe. Desperately hanging on to what we used to be and fooling no-one!
I could easily say the same about Amerika.

No where else has deployed so many cameras with so little benefit to we 'the people'. But the bu11$h1t goes on ad nauseam while we collectively sit on our hands ...
I dare say that a significant portion of our metropolitan and suburban cops are not much smarter than, and easily as corrupt as a camera (and just as 'strategically located'. Plus they're much more likely to shoot at you repeatedly, especially if you're a minority

We are made of coal, resting on black gold, surrounded by an ocean of food and yet we are no more than a poor pathetic subservient nation of sheep to Brussels and, I have to say, hanging on to America's apron like a baby sucking on a mother's breast!
Whereas we are poor pathetic sheep subservient to an alcoholic drug addict and his cronies. Oh well, at least he managed to do more to bring the price of fuel closer to the rest of the world's prices than any other @$$h01e in the history of mankind (during 'Duhbya' , our gas prices have almost QUADRUPLED), while setting up the sheep to compete with their own personal transport devices for food vs fuel (now, and for the forseeable future, Ethanol is made from corn, which has also markedly driven up the price of foods).

Please help - I've lost my identity! Image
Hilfe, Ich bin ein dumer Amerikaner. Bitte, Ich suche ein neues Land? ...

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The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


Last edited by The Rush on Fri Sep 26, 2008 03:00, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:37 
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You pretty much floored me with that Rush :shock:

It sounds like a different country to the one I left 10 years ago but then I was on the west. They say California is almost like a separate country to the rest of America.

Back then a gallon of gas was under a dollar, so it sounds as though there have been some major changes since then.

I`ll have to pop back over this year and talk to Arnie :)

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You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 22:52 
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Big Tone wrote:
You may not know it but here in England, the leash is often held by children.



You want to make it illegal for children to be outside unless they are leashed just so people in cars can drive down the public highway and not give a fig about what might be in them?

Somebody earlier suggested unscable barriers between road and pavement, and somebody else is suggesting it should be illegal to step into any road except at crossing points (of which there are very few in the UK).

Other people are suggesting all bends should be straightened so t*ts who want to maintain impossible speeds whilst going round corners don't fall off the road.

I've also seen suggestions that squished to death cyclists should be left at the side of the road so as to act as a warning to other cyclists.

Man I'm not liking the picture I'm getting here.


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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 23:26 
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weepej wrote:
You want to make it illegal for children to be outside unless they are leashed just so people in cars can drive down the public highway and not give a fig about what might be in them?


My god! You bitch and moan about people putting words in your mouth, and then you commit travesties like this! I do try to give you the benefit of the doubt mate, but you do yourself no favours.

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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 23:28 
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weepej wrote:
Big Tone wrote:
You may not know it but here in England, the leash is often held by children.



You want to make it illegal for children to be outside unless they are leashed just so people in cars can drive down the public highway and not give a fig about what might be in them?

I think a somewhat extreme interpretation of the posts IMO

Somebody earlier suggested unscable barriers between road and pavement, and somebody else is suggesting it should be illegal to step into any road except at crossing points (of which there are very few in the UK).

Yes I suggested
Quote:
Should we bring in a jaywalking law for roads of above a certain speed limit? (Yes we will need an improvement in crossings).
I did also qualify it by commenting on improving crossings.

As for the barriers, playing devil's advocate it works pretty well for railways. And if you want to discuss hierachy of controls with me and ERICPD then please yell !

Other people are suggesting all bends should be straightened so t*ts who want to maintain impossible speeds whilst going round corners don't fall off the road.

I've also seen suggestions that squished to death cyclists should be left at the side of the road so as to act as a warning to other cyclists.

Where did you see this?

Man I'm not liking the picture I'm getting here.

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Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk


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 Post subject: Point ...
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 01:56 
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weepej wrote:
Somebody earlier suggested unscable barriers between road and pavement, and somebody else is suggesting it should be illegal to step into any road except at crossing points (of which there are very few in the UK).

One of those somebodies was Rudolph Giuliani.
It's already illegal to cross the street or enter any road, except at a crosswalk, and then only when the proper light is green ... in a shopping district, which happens to be the case for nearly the entirety of Queens Boulevard, which was also known as the Boulevard of Death in the late 90s.

He did in fact put up hip-high fencing in 2001, to discourage everyone (except freerunners and traceurs) from jaywalking.
He also directed NYPD beat cops to issue over six thousand jaywalking summonses in six months, every single one of which had to appear in person to pay the $10 fine.

I've mentioned Queens Boulevard before. I neglected to mention that it's 10 to 12 lanes wide, or, 5 to 6 lanes each way. In other words, a highway with crosswalks, traffic lights, and parking spaces.
A green light won't last long enough to allow the average person to finish crossing its entirety. (The average Neuyawka walks at about 2.5 MpH.)

The barricades are still there.

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The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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 Post subject: and CounterPoint ...
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 02:04 
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On April 14th 2002, Katherine Marsh, of The New York Times wrote:
URBAN TACTICS; Where 'Don't Walk' Means 'Jaywalk'

ON a recent Wednesday evening at Columbus Circle, thousands of New Yorkers were engaged in their favorite urban sport, jaywalking. Rush-hour events included the mad dash against the light, the taxi slalom and the always thrilling pedestrian-oncoming driver face-off.

Petros Panayiotou, a student at New York Institute of Technology, sprinted across Central Park South, his knapsack bobbing as he dodged traffic. Arriving safely on the other side of the street, Mr. Panayiotou admitted that the experience made him nervous. He had recently seen a minivan hit a woman at Fifth Avenue and 42nd Street. Still, he had no intention of changing his ways.

''Jaywalking is part of this city,'' he explained.

The city's Department of Transportation hopes to challenge that attitude in the coming months with a public service campaign aimed at pedestrians. While the number of pedestrian fatalities has remained stable since 1998 at about 200 a year, 11,000 pedestrians are still injured by cars annually. Iris Weinshall, transportation commissioner, believes that these numbers could drop further if New Yorkers stopped jaywalking.

To that end, she is working with City Hall on a public service campaign that will try to change the famously brazen mentality of the New York pedestrian. Although Mayor Bloomberg, a supporter of continuing the post-Sept. 11 weekday driving restrictions, is gaining a reputation as an anti-car mayor, his campaign platform also states that walking should be made ''safer, easier and faster.''

But in a city in which pedestrians view jaywalking not only as a cultural prerogative, but also as their best weapon in a longstanding battle against motorists for control of the streets, the antijaywalking message is a hard sell.

In 1998, Mayor Giuliani took aim at jaywalkers by increasing enforcement and raising fines from $2 to $50. New Yorkers derided these efforts and kept crossing illegally. This time, the city plans to use a stick instead of a carrot.

''If we can win the hearts and minds of people with advertising,'' said James McShane, commander of the Police Department's Traffic Control Division, ''that's what this country is based on.''

Last year, the Department of Transportation asked Bozell, a Manhattan advertising agency, to create awareness about the problem of jaywalking in the city. To show city administrators what they were up against, the Bozell team taped interviews with pedestrians at troublesome intersections like Columbus Circle, Broadway and 23rd Street, Madison Square Park and Queens Boulevard. The answers were not exactly what the city expected.

Asked if jaywalking made him nervous, one pedestrian said, ''I feel like a seasoned veteran.'' Asked who should not jaywalk, another said, ''Out-of-towners.''

The pedestrians interviewed not only refused to see jaywalking as a problem, they also played any danger for laughs. as a ambulance siren wailed behind him, one New Yorker announced with a grin, ''No doubt a pedestrian.''

At another point, a pedestrian offered the New York translation of the ''don't walk'' sign. ''It really means 'Don't walk, but. . . .' ''

''There's city pride associated with jaywalking,'' said Justin Harrington, a senior partner at Bozell. ''We view people who don't do it as rubes.''

Not so in other American cities like Los Angeles and Milwaukee, where jaywalking laws are strictly enforced and pedestrians often wait to cross with the signal, even when there's no traffic. An NBC news segment broadcast during the Olympics about street-crossing habits in Salt Lake City showed that pedestrians not only wait for the signal, but also wave orange Day-Glo flags provided at each intersection as they cross. (The New York newscaster who delivered the report found this irresistibly funny and in fact could not help smirking during the broadcast.)

Charles Komanoff, founder of Right of Way, a pedestrian rights group, thinks the city has it backward. He says drivers, not pedestrians, are the culprits. In an analysis of police accident reports from 1997, Mr. Komanoff and his group determined that in 71 percent of the cases, drivers were largely or partly to blame. Mr. Komanoff believes that motorists, not jaywalkers, cause the majority of accidents by blocking the box, running lights and plowing into pedestrians at crossings.

Regardless of who or what is exactly to blame, changing the habits of headphone-wearing, cell-phone-gabbing pedestrians is a considerable challenge.

The same instincts that make New Yorkers lively and independent-minded also make them distrust anyone who tries to tell them how or when to cross the street. There is also a deeply ingrained suspicion of the car that makes New Yorkers want to put it in its place by leaping in front of it.

The aggressive mentality of the New York pedestrian evolved over the last century as a way to compete for limited space, particularly with cars. In the period between the world wars, the new profession of traffic engineers started altering the city for the benefit of drivers, widening streets, narrowing sidewalks and converting right-angle curbs to arcs so cars could turn faster.

Auto worship reached an apex in the late 1950's, when Robert Moses introduced highways into the heart of the city, noticeably the Cross Bronx Expressway, gutting neighborhoods and increasing the volume of traffic.

THE turning point arrived in 1961, when the pioneering urbanist Jane Jacobs, who lived on Hudson Street, in the heart of the pedestrian-friendly little streets of Greenwich Village, called on New Yorkers to take back the streets as their primary social space rather than allowing them to be the domain of the automobile.

''Part of being a New Yorker is having authority on the street,'' said Fred Kent, director of the Project for Public Spaces, a Manhattan organization dedicated to creating community spaces. ''The street is more yours than theirs.''

Ken Greenberg, an urban designer who has worked on several New York projects, feels that New York has been slower than its European counterparts to use pedestrian-friendly design, like changing the phasing of traffic signals to give pedestrians more time to cross and making curbs more angular to slow down traffic.

''The aggressive behavior of New York pedestrians may be a way of compensating for design that doesn't reflect what's going on in terms of use,'' Mr. Greenberg said. ''Changing some of this, rather than coming down on pedestrians, would take away the sense of combat.''

Commissioner Weinshall has been working on ways to declare a cease-fire. The Department of Transportation's pedestrian concessions have included widening sidewalks at Times Square, adding midblock crossings at locations like 57th Street West of Fifth Avenue and changing signal times along Queens Boulevard to give pedestrians more time to cross. Still, Ms. Weinshall believes that pedestrians must take some responsibility for their own safety.

''In any large urban setting, people rush through the streets, but New Yorkers are notorious,'' she said. ''When the light turns green, they play chicken. We need to make them understand the risks.''

On Columbus Circle, as pedestrians in business suits and stiletto heels, accompanied by dogs and strollers, and sometimes even romantically in pairs, race willy-nilly into traffic, the prospect of an antijaywalking revolution looks dim.

''Maybe it would work in someplace like Japan or Korea, where people are more disciplined,'' Mr. Panayiotou said. ''But not here.''

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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