Safe Speed Forums

Wikipedia is your friend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoon

IG - thanks for that. I wasn't aware it was a term relating to track driving, though I won't dispute that. I've always taken it to refer to road driving, and it is a term I first heard from Mr ipsg.glf - who seems to know about these things.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Weepej - Would you agree that there is no frustration quite like the frustration of keeping to a speed limit which is very obviously and blatantly wrong for the conditions?

Furthermore, do you think it's right or fair to penalise a safe driver who has had a lifetime of safe driving to suddenly blemish a hitherto impeccable driving record for being over the limit under safe conditions?

BTW, I’ve never accused you of being a troll but I am vague as to where you are coming from so maybe you could clarify for the record? I don't believe for a minute you think we are speed obsessed killers and I often find myself in agreement with you on many points.

I'll be honest, I feel like an idiot when I'm keeping to a speed limit where there is no reason for it. So maybe you can tell me how a speed limit knows what is safe? It's like someone asking you to hop on one leg in the queue at Tesco. It's illogical, in the same way a posted speed limit cannot, will not, never will, represent a safe speed and it never fails to amaze me how putting across such a simple concept is like pulling teeth!

There has been a time when I have been doing 20 mph, like a good little boy, and a cyclist has overtaken me because it's an open road, there’s no-one around and no parked cars. IF there were children around I may be doing 10 mph – or less!

No right minded person would have the slightest problem doing 20 mph if there was any doubt that it could be risky to do more. But I would rather have flashing warning signs activated at 20 mph if they could be made intelligent so as to detect pedestrians in the vicinity.

I still currently have a clean licence but if or when I do get done I know I will take umbrage because I am a safe driver and my very long safe driving record is evidence of this. And yet I speed, so how can this be?

I know it's because I use COAST, even before I’d heard of it or IG introduced the acronym here.

If you want to know who the unsafe drivers are you would do better to ask insurance companies than the Dft. Ah.. but that wouldn't earn as much revenue for the Gov - would it? (Rhetorical)

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

"Generally, a hoon is any person who drives any vehicle dangerously and/or fast"


Ta weepej. Not sure about the "or fast" as it implies that fast is always dangerous.

Tone

_________________
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

If you have to reduce the limit to 20 mph, it's an admission that either you have drivers who are travelling too fast - which means they either didnt see the potential hazard, or didn't care... or there are pedestrians who are not taking sensible precautions for their own safety.

Once the 20 mph limit is in place, you still have the same drivers, who either don't see the potential hazard, or don't care, and therefore will be travelling too fast, or pedestrians who are not taking care of their own safety.
What is more, you have removed a perceived sense of risk from the pedestrians, and made them more likely to be careless of their own, and their child's safety, because they think 20 is safe, and similarly removed a sense of potential risk from the driver for the same reason!

If either group thought the road was a dangerous place, they SHOULD take more care of their own safety, and consider the potential risk!

Kendal was recently pedestrianised - with access for buses and cycles maintained. There seems to have been MORE accidents since cars were excluded - including one pedestrian who walked into the side of a bus - a FLAMING GREAT BUS!!!!

There is a reason why there is a tarmaced road surface and a pavement. One is for vehicles, and one for pedestrians. When pedestrians take to the road, they should do so with due caution, not step out in a suicidal manner and expect the driver to take ALL the avoiding action - and if any parent FAILS to take proper control of a child of small years or ability when near a road, then they must not expect the driver to take all the responsibility they have abdicated.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Oh, I thought it was something to do with our late lamented Defence Minister. You know, acting like a complete to$$er.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Hiya weepej, yes it does look a bit confusing now you have pointed it out, I'll try to explain better what I mean. Say 2 people were performing the same task, one very skilled and experienced the other with little skill or experience. If they both apply the same level of being careful to the task would you expect the outcomes to be the same?

If for instance you required a heart transplant in order to carry on living, who would you rather have perform the operation. Someone with no experience of doing heart transplants
clutching a book of instructions on how its done, or an experienced surgeon who has performed many such operations with a 99.9% (nobody is perfect!) success rate?

Even if they both apply the same level of being careful, the outcomes are likely to be very different.

To me anyway, being careful means doing something to the best of your ability, it is not possible to be more careful than that. So someone with a lot of skill and appling the same level of being careful to a task as someone with mediocre levels of skill is more likely to end up with a positive outcome. Put another way, can anybody do anything better than their best?

If your definition of being careful differs from mine (doing something to the best of your ability), what would your definition be?



No I don't think it would be true to say I am more careful. I think the problem here is that care and skill are being confused.



Nope I'm now more skilled ... see above for my definition of being careful.





I don't think it is the case at all that people have to go through such experiences to modify behavior. People modify their behaviour all the time without killing/hitting anything.

If you drive, are you saying you were a perfect driver the very first time you ever drove? Or have you continually modified you behaviour and become more skilled over a period of time?

I believe what you are in fact implying here is that nobody should be permitted to do anything which might be at all dangerous unless they are totally completely 100% guaranteed not to injure themselves or anyone else while they go about it. I'd be interested to know how you would propose to train people to do anything much at all as almost everything (including eating and breathing) has some degree of danger.

In New York, we have separate 20MpH school area speed limits in effect between 6AM and 6PM. In addition, school crossing guards go out of their way to make sure that a child cannot possibly learn anything about how to safely cross a street by stopping all traffic. This may ensure their safety, but it also sets [what is at least to me] some terrifying precedents.

I understand the urge to protect a child. That's one reason why I avoid school [and hospital] zones. The majority of the time, the majority of the population in either of those areas cannot reasonably be expected to possess the same level of responsibility - or response ability - as the average able-bodied adult.

The other reason is that I am apalled by the non-lesson being 'taught' by school crossing guards.

I don't understand or endorse in any way teaching a child to believe that their presence in or near a crosswalk is or will always safe through no effort on their part. We already have enough so-called 'adults' who take little to no responsibility for their own safety when crossing the street, and now we are raising more of them deliberately at an exponential rate.

Being thirtysomething, I was recently insulted when a school crossing guard usurped several motorists' legal right of way (their lights were green, mine was red) so that I could cross the street without the burden of having to either wait, or look both ways before crossing. I'll go so far as to say I think she may qualify as stupid in regards to the performance of her duties, and has a hand in stupefying the next generation.
(Then again, perhaps her performance is governed by even dumber regulations; it may be little to no fault of her own, I suppose?)

When I am a pedestrian, frankly, I place 100% of the responsibility for getting across safely on myself, constantly. The driver education standards in Amerika are grossly insufficient for me to expect a driver with less than 12 years of experience to qualify for responsibility for any of MY safety. I'd simply be asking too much.

I will go so far as to say that, after the age of twelve, I would exclusively blame myself for being struck by anything, such was the extent of how well I was taught to cross the streets. In fact, I have blamed myself twice, simply because they seemed to lack intent.

As a driver, I also place 100% of the responsibility for others getting across safely on myself. Having seen at least one fourth of the rush hour population in certain areas cross the street with no right of way whatsoever, and no apparent self-concern for their own safety (looking down at their cellphones / handys / Treos / PalmOffices / whatever while crossing), it would be unsafe to assume that they possess or desire any responsibility for their own safety.

I am thouroughly unwilling and on guard against the possibility of giving anyone a[n increasingly well-earned] Darwin Award. However, those who apear to be qualified also seem to be increasing in numbers by intentional design.

Just because the majority have convinced / deluded themselves into believing they are not the primary cause of the problem, doesn't mean they aren't one of the major / primary cause[s] of the problem.

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The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation

A skillful person can be very careless though, I think the two are very different

Micheal Schumacher could decide to open his glove box and look through some CDs when he's driving home from the track one day, a very skillful driver doing a very careless thing.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/careful

Attentive to potential danger, error or harm

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/skillful

Possessing skill

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/skill

Capacity to do something well

That implication, carried to at least one of its possible logical conclusions, ensures the demise of any and all individual personal responsibility. (Imagine all martial arts and self-defense training defanged, merely physical conditioning, like Tae Bo.)

I've always personally held the belief that people should need licenses to become both pedestrians and parents, while of course knowing full well neither would ever happen.

I was not expecting to see both of their apparent performance standards in rapid decline toward the day when, as individuals, we forget how to take any responsibility for our own safety, and then forget the forgetting, resulting in us marvelling at wild animals' ability to teach their children how to survive and fend for themselves.

Is there some sort of collective subconscious backlash against "cross on the green, not in between"? On your side of the pond, it was called the Green Cross Code, right?

No one sees the dangers in this slide?

Training standards for so many things are either nonexistent, or on the decline, while nannyism is on the rise. People like me may one day complainIt is unreasonable to expect a population of increasingly unskilled drivers and unskilled pedestrians to excercise caution to better effect.

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation

Everything in life is a risk/benefit balance, mitigating the risk to a level where the benefit is worth it. To pretend otherwise is futile.

Hiya In Gear, thanks for your welcome and all your kind comments, as a serving PO you must see a few of these kind of incidents, and I'm very grateful for the input of someone who experienced the consequences first hand.

COAST is pretty much what I was taught during my (very excellent) HGV training. It wasn't called COAST back then, didn't have an acronyn, but the pricipals taught were very similar.

This series of photos from the in-laws in the big 'burbs. It seems this main road also has railings between pavement und roadside. This would be another thing perhaps worth considering on this road with the nursery school :scratchchin.















They find on obervation that overspeed show up red. They also find that the speed modified und corrected as soon as noticed.


They also find it does record a jogger's speed at 6 mph und a cyclist at 27 mph on the residential road. They did not upload these photos . .. yet

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

They had those signs near where I worked.
They were replaced with the usual flashing signs after the local youth decided to go past them at higher speeds to see how fast they could record.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

It's not just drivers who try to activate the cameras for 'fun'. Did anyone else read this a while back...

"A BOY of 14 died of heart failure as he tried to trigger a 30mph “slow down” road sign — by SPRINTING past it. "

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... 785823.ece

_________________
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

C'mon wildy indulge me here. What the heck are the big 'burbs

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Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Manchester und Preston und Carlisle as they have suburbs - some of which are little towns in own right.. or overgrown villages like this one. I am sure liebster Mole und liebster Stephen will recognise where Jazz und Ju-Ju take these photos I think this ist grown from cute little place to highly des res big cluster of middle class 'burbs ..

I play with words .. with English .. to try to get it better. I think I fail badly on spelling though . I get "Burbs" from a very pleasantly watchable film with Tom Hanks called "The Burbs"

From this film - I learn rightly or wrongly that "Burbs" = "middle class residential suburban suburbia" Or "des res with perceived values to protect with hint of NIMBY und Home Watch/Speed watch with ever decreasing circles rippling away" The towns are full of such 'burbs which want 20 mph zones on every road but the one they want to rat run through I not advocating blanket 20 mph or even 15 mph limit.

Those who live in these 'burbs are the residents und they should behave to neighbours as they wish the neighbours to behave to them = driving with consideration in these 'burbs without having Nanny und a camera to watch you do so. It akin to Nanny observing your intimate activities . :popcorn.


I think the signs do stop daft behaviour by most per what the relatives are saying occur on busy A6 und this rat run road which link A575 to A572. und then back to A580 und A6 or M60.

By the way .. per the relatives down there und one of these ist very close to where they live .. the signs activate from up to three quarter mile away. They show up the speed of a walker ..Both Jazz und Ju Ju walk at 10 mph as normal pace per these gadgets. They say it clock them at 75 yards or so.



Ju-Ju's dog makes her run towards the scenic cycle/bridle jog walk which run below the bridge in the sign with the S bend. He pull her to 20 mph run! He a huge overgrown Alsatian who failed to become police dog as he has problem with his dangly bits (we think he a gay dog too !) (I gather this scenic walk way was once the railway line und may end up a tram line under the congestion charge plans

As for the child who died cycling und running at them.. I think I read he had undiagnosed heart problem. It quite likely that tragedy loom when he play spirited game of football/rugby/tennis You should always listen to heart beats after any exercise to see how it improve or check if feel unwell und keep log of this just in case .. und see GP if any reason to suspect all not as should be..

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Ach .. I forget to say und clap to Rumbly und others who post up exactly what it can mean to the other party in these genuine accidents.

Now maybe the driver who killed Ferdl should have checked the vehicle before he drove it.. but he trusted his boss who was an incompetent fool in reality und who was the one who evaded justice really. I will say und concede that BRAKE did bang this type of rogue to rights und should continue to do so.


The driver did try to kill himself. We as family made peace with him. It helped all of us in all reality.

The driver who had a fatal episode und collide with me.. . Tja.. he died on impact or was dying in course of his episode. For insurance pay-out - he alive when he hit per the courts eventually His widow blame herself.. she also try suicide. She fail .. she honorary Granny to our children und a godmama too. I try to say it help to make the peace und see the other side of the tragedy.

I not see this happen these days und this ist very, very very unjust und wrong

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Y'see what happens when you ask WC a simple question, Riggers. It all gets very complicated. I really wonder how the lady ever manages to get any work done.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

There a catchy little song which epitomise ALL us girly-go girl girls!

It cos we are Woman!


W O M A N

DOOBEL EWE .. OHHHH .. AY.. EM .. AY ENNNN!

should I sing it again [/b]

It a fave song in family.. well for the few girls in it

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!