Safe Speed Forums

I think I see where Thatsnews is coming from, but I don't agree with their suggestion either - ignoring a posted limit is, in my mind, considerably less risky (especially where it's been imposed for environmental/political/nimbyesque grounds on a road which previously was happily supporting a higher limit) than ignoring a full-on lane/carriageway closure...

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Chris

I'm quite happy for HATOs to perform carriage cleaning duties, seems perfectly sensible to free the Traffic Police to perform duties only they can perform. So long as it's not an excuse to reduce Police numbers. Is this happening? I don't know, I've been out of the loop for awhile. I hope not, because while the Police can perform activities "below their rank" (for want of a better expression) HATOs can't perform tasks above their's.

As for the prosecution, sounds fair enough to me and appropriate given the situation.

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In a former life I was Capri2.8

I think a few people have misinterpreted my comments. I'm not saying the guy was in the right, legally or morally to do what he did. All I'm trying to say is that I can understand why he did.

HATOs have almost become the human equivalent of those "advisory" matrix signs, no-one takes them seriously because in the majority of cases they are wrong (I estimate 9 times out of 10 based on my own personal observations including last night where there was advisory L2 closed signs on the M50 for about 2 miles with no reason, or closure evident, I still hadn't encountered a hazard by the time I hit the End sigh). I think everyone here who drives long distances will have a story of the HATOs doing something.

Once you hit a certain threshold for cockups, you trigger "boy who cried wolf" syndrome in drivers, just the same as the matrix signs have for years. Drivers wont believe anything you tell them until they see it for their own eyes.

Now if it's a legal instruction, such as the big red X or a rolling roadblock then I personally will obey it, more out of fear of prosecution than because I actually think there's going to be anything there. Otherwise anything advisory I just take as a warning to be extra alert for anything going on up ahead and extra cautious about having a way into the next lane (or whatever) planned. Like I said 9 times out of 10 there will be nothing, even in the cases of the big red X, and that just winds people up even more.

I'm with you in having an increasing lack of faith in the matrices, other than the red X. But I don't have the same lack of faith in HATOs.

The way I see it, it makes no difference to the motorway control room whether the matrix signs are showing message A or message B - the signs are always there, always (maintenance periods/failures aside) available, and it takes no more effort to have them all warning of something just around the next corner than it does to have them all switched off.

OTOH, there are a finite number of HATO units for each region, so deploying one just on a whim, or keeping one out longer than necessary, is then reducing the number of units available to deal with the next incident that occurs - if I were in charge of deploying them I'd therefore want to be sure they were attending a genuine incident AND that they cleared off as soon as possible after the incident was resolved, using their on-the-spot observations to decide when that was as opposed to sitting back in a control room trying to determine the state of play remotely.




In the case of a rolling block, if they've done their job right then the reason for the block should be cleared entirely/over to the hard shoulder before you reach the spot, so it's quite possible that you'd be left thinking there was nothing wrong up ahead...

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Chris

Absolutely, it's only when the rolling block is viewed in the context of the HATOs other more visible and less explainable cockups that people begin to doubt the necessity of the roadblock. I refer back to my previous example where they closed two lanes so that a lorry on the hard shoulder could change a wheel. One lane would have been fine, but they closed to. With the rolling roadblock they have closed three lanes, the logic goes that this is also likely an overreaction and they probably only needed to close two so I'll just undertake them on the inside since whatever it is it's probably in lane 3.

Again, I'm not saying he's right, and there are logical fallacies in the argument (since to extend it to it's logical conclusion would have them closing a parallel A-road once the entire motorway is blocked) but it wouldn't be the first time an action has been taken based on a logical fallacy now would it?

I was only partially serious. But you raise an interesting question: Would a police officer have dealt with that matter in the same way?

Incidentally only this evening I saw a HATO on the M54, parked diagonally on the hard shoulder, front wheels pointing into the road and the nose of the vehicle only inches from the bloody road!

Incidentally, there seemed no reason why he was parked there.

Clearly, whatever emergency situation that had existed had long gone, so there was no reason why he was parked dangerously with his flashing lights on.

The friend I was with said: "What the hell is he doing? Does he want omeone to shunt him into the road?"

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www.thatsnews.org.uk / www.thatsnews.blogspot.com / http://thatsmotoring.blogspot.com/

Well it almost certainly wasn't the HATO that decided to proscute as they can't can they? So I assume they reported the matter to the police who proceeded with the prosecution, ergo I assume yes they would have acted in the same way.



Ahh the M54, my local motorway

I've seen police, HATO, RAC, AA, Joes Breakdown and Recovery trucks all parking on the hard shoulder who might be deemed to be too close to the edge.

Incidentally, HATOs also get crticised for parking in those hard shoulder bays marked 'Police Only' (damned one way, damned the other ) and can only assume that they are permitted to. The reason they say 'Police Only' is probably not because of some maleavolent plan to fool us all but because the signs pre-date the introduction of HATOs and nobody has got around to changing them yet.

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Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Yes. But recovery trucks invariably park with their wheels pointing away from the road so if someone hits them from behind, they will not be shunted into the traffic. As would probably have been the fate of the HATO we saw.

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www.thatsnews.org.uk / www.thatsnews.blogspot.com / http://thatsmotoring.blogspot.com/

Ahh gotcha! I just knew there had to be something that the HATO did that was more "wrong" that what everyone else does.

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Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

A recovery operator I was chatting with told me about a time when he was dealing with an incident on the hard shoulder. He was parked with wheels towards the left. A HATO had parked his vehicle with wheels pointing towards the road.

The two HATOS were laughing and joking, standing with their backs to the traffic right on the edge of the hard shoulder.

He asked them why they had parked with their wheels pointing towards the road, thus endangering themselves and other drivers? "It is the way we are told to park" was the reply.

He pointed out that they were also standing in a very unsafe position on the hard shoulder. "We'll be Ok. We have placed cones out AND we have reflective jackets!"

He told me: "The pair of numpties could not see that they were not only risking their own lives but also the lives of other people. Anyway, I just left them to it!"

And it is incidents like this that make many people in the recovery industry conclude that HATOs are poorly trained. It's not their fault. The scheme should have been properly designed in the first place, with proper training programmes. But it wasn't.

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www.thatsnews.org.uk / www.thatsnews.blogspot.com / http://thatsmotoring.blogspot.com/

He told me: "The pair of numpties could not see that they were not only risking their own lives but also the lives of other people. Anyway, I just left them to it!"


..They may have been numpties, but I would hazard a guess that they are numpties in the minority and you will always get idiots, no matter what job. Dont forget the numpty recovery operators too, I am sure speaking with HATO'S they could tell the same stories about idiot recovery operators.

Every job has those that do it like it should be done and then those that choose to do it with the least amount of effort and care. Its always those people that get found out as they do stupid things and hence, a bad reputation starts!

I happen to know that HATO's get a very good level of training and it would be wholly unfair to base your prejudice on the hearsay of a recovery operator.

So the training programme insists on ALL HATOs parking their vehicles in a way that is contrary to good health and safety practice?

Can't be that good, can it?

I hope that the training has been improved. Because anyone who works on the Motorways deserves the best training available.

Another incident was when a recovery operator had been called out to safely effect a recovery and found that the broken-down car was being prepared for a tow by a HATO who did not have a winch and who proposed to use a length of rope he had on his vehicle.

It was lucky that the recovery operator stopped him. The fault on the vehicle needed not a tow but a lift on to a flat bed recovery truck. Towing the vehicle would have caused severe damage to it. The HATO did not know that, and although he was trying to be helpful -he apparently thought he could save the driver the recovery fee- he clearly had not been properly trained. Or he would not have decided to do what he did.

Perhaps the situation is different now. But in the first several years such amateur antics have done them no favours with the vehicle recovery industry.

And by the way, it is not hearsay. (This is not a court of law!:wink:) And it is not based on a report from one recovery operator. But reports from several dozen over a long period of time.

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www.thatsnews.org.uk / www.thatsnews.blogspot.com / http://thatsmotoring.blogspot.com/

So the training programme insists on ALL HATOs parking their vehicles in a way that is contrary to good health and safety practice?


....You refer to good health and safety practices - but can you tell me on what basis you make this statement. The term Fend Off, Fend in Line and Fend In is the way the vehicle and subsequent tyres are left pointing on the hard shoulder. In deciding which method was best practice, I believe the HA undertook to conduct evaluations through TRL (Traffic Research Laboratory) and they concluded that each menthod had its own benifits and pitfalls equal to each other. Therefore there was no "best method" and the HA adopted all three and left it to the Officers to decide, based on individual circumstances.

I am sure you are quite right in that in the beginning there was little or no signigant skills base to adopt and train officers from. But the service has been going for 3-4 years now I believe and the officers should be developing their own skills base, which in time, should become very good. Given the time they spend on the motorways.

HATO officers do not and should not recover vehicles. Nor should theyact as recovery agents. The role with the tow rope is commonly called carraigeway clearance. This could involve dragging a vehicle off the live lanes so that the motoring public can get moving again, whilst they then wait for a recovery agent to recover the vehicle.

If in damaging the vehicle further was an issue, I am sure the HA would consider savings millions of pounds in opening a carraigway eg 30 minutes earlier (whilst awaiting recovery operator) against a possible claim for clearing the vehicle?

I used the term hearsay as you loosely referred to a specific incident from one operator and I was referring to stories growing arms and legs by the time 2,3,4 people have heard the same one???

Boet, you missed my point. The recovery vehicle had already been dispatched to deal with the broken-down car.

And I know that HATOs should not effect recoveries. What a pity that some HATOs seem not to know this.

By the way, when HATOs start getting more and more powers and get issued with speed guns do remember this thread, OK? The police are concerned about HATOs wanting and possibly getting extra powers.

Incidentally the police forum that confirmed that also were concerned that people were confusing the speed limit with driving at a safe speed. The Safe speed message is getting across!

The start of the thread was:
http://www.police-recruitment.com/one2/ ... 17458.html



A HATO supervisor interjected with:

Quote:

As a new organisation i am amazed that our procedures and rules differ so widely from area to area.

As are we all.

You know, I wonder if Mick the HATO supervisor has not hit the nail on the head? WHY does the HATO force have rules and procedures that differ so widely from area to area? Managerial incompetence? Empire building by some area managers?

It will all end in tears, I am afraid.

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www.thatsnews.org.uk / www.thatsnews.blogspot.com / http://thatsmotoring.blogspot.com/