Safe Speed Forums

Anyone see this show on the BBC tonight.

I know its all probably old ground to you lot but it just enhances the need for more traffic police and less speed cameras.
Out of all the incidents shown hardly any would have been stopped by a speed camera.

One or two are debatable at best.

The featured police were understandable and offered advice, do speed cameras do this?

One example of the show is that a speed camera wouldn’t have caught a motorcyclist over taking on double white lines because he was under the speed limit? Yet the traffic policeman did catch him.

The most obvious lesson of this show still goes missing, and that its lack of education on the road.
Yet this moral goes unsaid therefore many will people will still point the main blame that it was speed that did it.

Its so frustrating that people buy this blatant mis-information.

Anyway thanks and keep up the good work.

Hear hear. I was well impressed with the attitude of all BiBs on that programme.

Welcome. "Common sense" is especially welcome - shame there doesn't seen to be any around Westminster.

The programme didn't show in Scotland, but I understand it's scheduled to show shortly (later this week?).

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

What concerns me more is why are the BBC nor the policemen pointing this out?

It all leads back to the Govt. The BBC are uneasy about going against the Govt for obvious reasons now, (Iraq war etc) and the police of course have superiors who have superiors who report to the Govt.

If they say anything against Govt spin that they get punished.
What kind of democracy is this?

Its crying out to be said yet the appropriate bodies are too afraid to.

Another example of the show was the drunk in the car thrashing round a corner, hitting a fence and smashing the car.

Would the drunk have paid a blind bit of notice to the speed camera?

I think not and nor is the speed camera going to catch him.

That BiB giving the acid lecture - My wife fell off the settee in a fit of giggles when the biker came out with the imortal line

"Why don't you go catch burglars instead!"

That BiB reminded me of old IG - only less acid than he can be. I thought he was fair with Liz driver, and the young kid.

And the truck driver in his tights and high heels..classic comedy. But cannot understand why he did not get banned for not providing a sample?

10 points, two years community and a help over the drink problem...

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Just returned from the Edinburgh run, which i have not done for a while.

From North of London to Edinburgh & back, and only see a Panda car in Edinburgh town Centre. I knew they had dramaticly reduced traffic Police, it seems they have now completly removed them

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Steve

Typically the drunks concerned were in a "pool" or throwaway and ran of. They sometimes turn up in A&E in another area - but it's rare.

They are almost impossible to trace . We have pockets here. We have reduced some of these incidents by chucking oficers at them. Unfortunately - we cannot be everywhere and find word gets out and they move off to annoy another area

In Gear, thats about all you can do in a "running battle", bacause from where I'm sat, thats exactly what it is.

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Semper in excreta, nur quantitat variat.

Yep they have reduced, dramatically in some areas, not so in others. In Cumbria we still have the same as 10 years ago, although in order to retain numbers we had to incorporate the ARV (about 5% of our worktime including training). However this is positively offset by not having to escort abnormal indivisible loads, having more assistance from Highways Agency, and three camera vans reducing our requirement to target speed complaint areas to the same degree as before. Countering that is the fact that our roads are probably 25% busier than 10years ago, and probably a higher percentage again of non compliant drivers, our biggest headache.

Looking purely at officer ratio we are doing better in Cumbria than most forces, but we have had an apalling last 3 months for fatalities.

Saw the start of the show last night. There is no doubt that we need police who talk to the motorist and help them whatever way is best, whether by education or enforcement.

I agree that the Bib on the 'cat and fiddle' last night was correct with his discretion, because I think that the Lotus driver would have learned from the 'education', whereas it was apparent that the biker was only going to learn via the ticket.

I did think however that the discretion shown might rile some of our biker friends, feeding the view that we bib have a downer on bikes.

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

What about admin and paperwork Ian?

Many trafpol have complained to me that too much paperwork keeps them off the road with at least two doublings in paperwork since 1983.

One chap from a central England traffic garage said that they are down to just 8% of total officer time on patrol because of admin overhead.

Can you estimate what percentage of your time you're able to spend on patrol?

When you have "initiatives" (like a crack down on bald tyres for example) does that tend to take you off the road for long periods while you write up the paperwork for a dozen or more offences recorded?

And finally, if it is a problem, what would you do about it?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

We've kept up our numbers by a bit of "re-organisation" in very similar way to you. Think we have managed to do slightly better on keeping guys mobile on whole - but you know as well as I do - it is a constant juggling.

I'd say our traffic volume has increased similarly over last 10 years or as well. Has done so everywhere else.




We do find a little discretion, advice or a "rollicking" works quite well with a lot of our "customers"- and I was never quite as "acid" as that guy (well - maybe a bit - er um )and I never chew gum if dealing with the public! But overall think the guy was fair - but not sure whether the drive was shocked at losing it a bit or more shocked at doing it in front of the BiB.

If the road is getting safer - then combination of lower speed limite, better road markings, and police presence?

It would also be interesting to know if HGVs are still using the road as frequently as they used to. It has remained popular with lorries despite the motoways and alternative routes - but not been down that way for about 4 years now.

The secret, as with driving, is planning.

Yes we have plenty of paperwork, probably more than 10 years ago, more time spent completing paperwork required for statistical analysis, new forms for injury collisions. We have to be more accountable and this requires extra paperwork or data input. We have to record every stop search. We will soon have to record every stop. I have recently taken on a family liaison responsibility which involves an investigative but supporting responsibility with the bereaved family after a fatal RTC. This is again time consuming and paper intensive, but it is a role which complements the officer in case and his senior investigating officer, so the time cost of the extra work has to be balanced against the benefit accrued. Intel recording is time consuming and can be seen as a bind. If you have any intel to submit it must be completed on a separate form and submitted through the area intelligence unit. Of course the collated intel can result in efficiency benefits through more specific targeting etc.

Probably over 80% of our paperwork can be completed in our cars. This mitigates the problem slightly, because we can still locate ourselves for high visibility while getting through the paperwork.

But....

The biggest thief of time is the damn thing I'm tapping away on now. Every day we come on duty we have to log in to our computer, then check emails, (usually about 30 per day usually 75% irrelevant). We then check the daily intel to see what is relevant to us, (again about 30 items daily, 10-15% relevance). We also have a specific traffic intel database which needs to be checked daily for targets etc.
We are also being encouraged to complete more and more paperwork on the computer, statements, intel, prosecution files, etc, which may well lead to us spending more time in our non wheeled office - (good argument for laptops, boss! )


Yes, I'd say we patrolled for about 70% of our shift - including paperwork completion in the car. If you exclude that it would be about 50-55%. If you exclude incidents we are resourced to, we probably spend about 30% of our time on proactive patrol. These are rough approximations only. Obviously this does not include training days which are probably 20 per annum average, allowances for supervisory, admin roles etc.


Depends largely on the type of crackdown. We've just completed our winter drink drive campaign. I personally stopped about 600 cars on various static (con and use ) checks ). Out of those 600 I breath tested tested 16, none were positive. I got over 50 con and use offences, dealt with in the usual ways. None of this required any paperwork to be completed after the operation. VDRS forms, producers, fixed penalty tickets, drink drive forms and pocket book completed at the time. There will be some paperwork re the usual percentage of fail to produce docs, but that hasn't changed.

I have also been on ANPR operations where we have brought in prisoner after prisoner. The fall out from that type of operation - especially if you go one step beyond the intel and get a decent job out of a no VEL marker etc. - is that you are left with hours and hours of paperwork, file prep, property itemising and exhibiting etc etc. These operations, due to their targeted nature can be very effective, and efficient in respect of quality of offence per hour, but often little to do with traffic matters.


What problem are you referring to Paul?

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

Where

I certainley, can go a week or 2 without seeing a single traffic car

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Steve

Thanks for a comprehensive and encouraging reply.



An excess of admin... that's all.

Has anyone got any theories about why Ian is not swamped with paperwork, but some others claim to be absolutely swamped?

Is there local mismanagement? Is it that simple?

Ian, one last question on this subject...

Do you specifically manage your time or approach to limit the paperwork? For example do you give out a VDRS notice when the decision may otherwise be marginal to minimise paperwork and maximise patrol time?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I'm sure I possibly do, but I'm not specifically aware of it. I'm happy to sit in the patrol car and complete the paperwork for the job I've just done, before setting off looking for the next job. If I don't get time to do it then, I'll do it as soon as poss afterwards. I think a lot of bobbies, especially new in the department will rack up a load of work before even considering the paperwork consequences. That is when it becomes a problem.

No I'd deal with the matter appropriately within my own sense of discretion. If a driver needs reporting for due care/ dangerous then that's what happens. If a tyre has 13 mm tread rather than 16mm at an applicable point then he's likely to get a VDRS. Whatever is appropriate.

I do think we are going to have a significant increase in paperwork later this year when we have to submit a form whenever we stop a vehicle. I like to stop a good number of vehicles each shift. Perhaps only one in five will go away with a nasty piece of paper, but I will have a significant increase in paperload. I hope the form isn't too time consuming, because that will put bib off stopping vehicles.

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

Come to Cumbria mate, we have traffic cars on every second street corner, and camera vans on the other ones.

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

No thanks, it is not a place that is of any interest or somewhere i have any need to travel to.

Does cumbria have anything to offer, over than discrimination against motorist's.

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Steve

Some people are quite partial to the scenery

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

It's a very pretty. Some nice views.

D'oh!

Beaten to it!