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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 13:25 
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Listening to the radio on the way into work and caught a story about a proposal to increase the sentences for driving whilst holiding a mobile phone, PDA or navigation device (does a map count as a navigation device?).

The proposed penalty is up to 2 years imprisonment.

Great, lots of tough talking about how this will get people to sit up and think and now comply with the law (unlike the current situation).

Maybe I'm off track but I suspect that the reason so few drivers abide by the law on mobiles is that they don't think they will be caught, given the reduction in trafpol, I suspect they probably right.

So what practical use or value will upping the maximum penalty to 2 years imprisonment actually have!!!

I suspect bugger all!!

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 15:41 
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Safety Engineer wrote:
(does a map count as a navigation device?).



i hope not :shock: :shock: :shock:

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 15:45 
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It's in the Daily Mail today, including a quote from Paul. Sorry, can't give a link because I can't access news sites at work.

AIUI it is not a proposal for new laws, but to lower the threshold at which a dangerous driving charge is considered in preference to careless driving or a fixed penalty.

Yet another example of people in power believing that stricter penalties are the answer as opposed to better and more appropriately targeted enforcement :x

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 19:20 
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Safety Engineer wrote:
So what practical use or value will upping the maximum penalty to 2 years imprisonment actually have!!!

The paedophiles, burglars, muggers, etc will be celebrating with glee because there will be less space in jail for them when it's filled with motorists.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 19:34 
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PeterE wrote:
It's in the Daily Mail today, including a quote from Paul. Sorry, can't give a link because I can't access news sites at work.

See here

Quote:
Drivers risk two years in jail for using their mobile phones

By JAMES SLACK
Last updated at 08:47am on 7th September 2007

Motorists who use a hand-held mobile phone or fiddle with a satellite-navigation system while driving could be jailed for up to two years.

Prosecutors have said they could be charged with dangerous driving in a dramatically tougher approach to such offences.

Those caught fiddling with an MP3 music player or texting on a mobile at the wheel could also face the charge.

Prosecutions will be brought whenever it is judged that using the equipment posed a danger, such as forcing a car to swerve or causing a distracted motorist to jump a red light.

Those who kill while using a mobile phone will face 14 years behind bars under the charge of causing death by dangerous driving.

Director of Public Prosecutions Ken Macdonald said: "There is widespread public concern about the use of mobile phones and other hand-held electronic equipment while driving.

"We accept that in cases where there is clear evidence that danger has been caused by their use - such as texting while driving - then our policy should spell out that the starting point for charging will be dangerous driving."

Motoring groups said the move was a "dramatic" heightening of the seriousness of the offence.

The current offence of careless driving, which applies to those who drive unsafely by using a mobile or equipment such as a satellite-navigation system, carries only a £2,500 fine or community order.

More commonly, drivers are punished for the simple offence of using a mobile while driving which, since February, carries a fine of £60 and three penalty points.

The changes follow a Crown Prosecution Service review of the penalties for "bad driving", which also suggests a charge of manslaughter could be brought in some cases against drivers who kill.

Supporters say that despite fines and penalty points for using a mobile, many drivers still flout the law, sometimes with fatal consequences.

Trinity Taylor, 23, from Aldershot, Hampshire, died in 2005 after lorry driver John Payne ran into her car on the M3 in Basingstoke while using his mobile.

Payne, 31, of Chesham, Buckinghamshire, was jailed for four years.

But Edmund King, of the RAC Foundation, said existing punishments should be properly enforced.

He said: "The message to motorists is clearly that, if you are using a hand-held mobile or satnav, beware because the law is going to clamp down on you."

He added: "If it really is interpreted that using a handheld mobile phone is dangerous driving, that is a dramatic change to what is currently happening.

"Despite the threat of three penalty points, which could be a threat to a person's livelihood, we all see thousands of motorists driving dangerously using mobile phones.

"It is not just about sentencing, it is about enforcement. We ought to look at what is alreadly in law first."

Paul Smith, of campaign group Safe Speed, said careless driving - the current charge - is not an offence that most drivers commit deliberately.

Shifting it to a new category of dangerous driving will therefore have no deterrent effect, he claimed.

Mr Smith said extreme care should be taken when deciding to prosecute a driver.

"You cannot say because someone had a mobile phone they were driving dangerously. There must be evidence they were actually posing a danger to other people."

Under the changes, motorists who cause death on the roads face a maximum penalty of life imprisonment. Current guidelines say manslaughter is "very rarely appropriate" in road death cases.

But, under reforms being introduced on September 24 this year, a driver who has killed on the roads could be charged with manslaughter as well as causing death by dangerous driving, leaving a jury open to return the lower charge if they find manslaughter has not been proved.

Full guidance due later this year will contain more details of which offences are to be prosecuted more harshly.

Sensible comments from both Paul and Edmund King :thumbsup:

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 20:26 
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I admit I have a problem over the mobile phone thing. I dislike them. I avoid using one when I can. My wife, Wildy :neko: managed to upset some folk she normally all chums with over this issue.

I admit I have never been able to understand the obsession with answering a mobile phone to the extent that some survey indicates greater distress over a lost mobile phone than a pet animal or a toddler : :? :? :?

To me .. it's a phone. Just like the old bakerlite ringy ringy thingy. :wink:

If I can answer - I answer. If not .. I pick up on voice mail or missed calls. My paging service to attend to patients is on a different system altogether. Rightly so too :wink: I am on alert to these at all times when on duty or up to 90 minutes after - at which point I will have to instruct staff over phone as too far away to return to base by then as usually home :wink:

But I do not/cannot/will not allow some telephone device to rule my life.

But .. despair as I do of the fascination with a mobile phone.. I see failings of this law. Pedestrians... cyclists are oblivious to dangers when engrossed in naff conversations too. It takes two to tango after all :roll:

But as to other "toy" such as Sat Nav = question of educating to common sense. I do have Sat Nav as standard in my family car as does Wildy :neko: in her sportier version of my car :lol: We programme before we set off. If it advises of "recalculate because it detected a jam" - it bleeps and it's as simple as pressing windscreen wipers to OK this change of planned route in reality :wink:

But again .. it boils down to what we post up as constant across the family:

Plan routes and keep COAST at back of mind

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 20:36 
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PeterE wrote:
AIUI it is not a proposal for new laws, but to lower the threshold at which a dangerous driving charge is considered in preference to careless driving or a fixed penalty.

My understanding is a little different. The CPS seem to be unwilling to prefer charges of dangerous driving. Anybody who has sat through a few motoring courts will have seen DWDC cases that more than met the minimum for a dangerous driving charge.
There is concern among sentencers that some use of a mobile phone charges could, and perhaps should, have been charged as DWDC.

As far as I am aware this article is a misunderstanding about advice given with the intention of ensuring that, where there is evidence to support a charge of dangerous driving, then it should be charged as such.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 20:56 
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I also heard on Radio One news tonight that you could be charged with dangerous driving for smoking a cigarette!

They've got it in for drivers. They've got it in for motorists. God help you if you're a smoking motorist.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 20:57 
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fisherman wrote:
PeterE wrote:
AIUI it is not a proposal for new laws, but to lower the threshold at which a dangerous driving charge is considered in preference to careless driving or a fixed penalty.

My understanding is a little different. The CPS seem to be unwilling to prefer charges of dangerous driving. Anybody who has sat through a few motoring courts will have seen DWDC cases that more than met the minimum for a dangerous driving charge.
There is concern among sentencers that some use of a mobile phone charges could, and perhaps should, have been charged as DWDC.

As far as I am aware this article is a misunderstanding about advice given with the intention of ensuring that, where there is evidence to support a charge of dangerous driving, then it should be charged as such.

Isn't that pretty much what I said?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 21:13 
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R1Nut wrote:
I also heard on Radio One news tonight that you could be charged with dangerous driving for smoking a cigarette!

They've got it in for drivers. They've got it in for motorists. God help you if you're a smoking motorist.


Not being trolly trolly funny here .. but have you tried all meaisures to quit.?


I will never deny treatment to anyone .. no matter the life style. I will have to take note of that lifestyle as it can affect whatever I use to help prolong that life with a quality. Very naturally I will try to influence patient to refrain from further harm;/uindermining what I am trying to do for them.

But I took a vow when I graduated. Like almost all medics (1 % being like as in other professions .. "disreputable or unworthy of status :wink: " )

But most of us take that vow pretty darned seriously. I could never ever undermine my oath to try to preserve life.. come what may.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 21:37 
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I am not going to get into that argument with you Moggie. Suffice to say it is my choice :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 02:25 
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fisherman wrote:
PeterE wrote:
AIUI it is not a proposal for new laws, but to lower the threshold at which a dangerous driving charge is considered in preference to careless driving or a fixed penalty.

My understanding is a little different. The CPS seem to be unwilling to prefer charges of dangerous driving. Anybody who has sat through a few motoring courts will have seen DWDC cases that more than met the minimum for a dangerous driving charge.
There is concern among sentencers that some use of a mobile phone charges could, and perhaps should, have been charged as DWDC.

As far as I am aware this article is a misunderstanding about advice given with the intention of ensuring that, where there is evidence to support a charge of dangerous driving, then it should be charged as such.


I think this affirms the widely held belief, certainly amongst many of us here, that the new 'mobile specific' laws were, and are, wholly unneccesary!

If a driver's driving, through any cause, falls to a standard that could be considered careless, or dangerous, then they should be charged as such. In the CPS guidelines, mobile phone driving, and dangerous driving through the use of a mobile phone, were covered long before the mobile specific law was passed. To my mind, this level of specificity is not the place of the legislature.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 09:12 
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I was going to pop this one in "News" as it's the "Inside Story" in this week's "Auto Express"

However, it's more relevant to this thread :wink:

"Inside Story" this week is on page 44 - if you want to leaf through the mag racks :hehe: (I usually end up there whilst my wife dashes around the supermarket with a trolley :popcorn:)

Anyway Headlined

:listenup: YOU'VE BEEN SHAMED

It seems the police are putting photos of drivers copped on camera on the internet :popcorn:

(We do not do things like that - we just fine and read the riot act around here. But this law seems to be the one which we find most flout and I just cannot understand why chatting on the phone to this extent 24/7 is so important in reality. )


Per the Auto-express article

Quote:

Merseyside Police have taken the groundbreaking step of shaming drivers into not using hand held mobiles on the move. Officers photograph the motorists using their phones illegally and then display the offenders on the force's website. Such was the success in Sefton that "Operation Mobile" is now going force-wide


:scratchchin: Local papers published similar photos in the various regional rags up and down the country. I cannot say it worked given the numbers we cop "at it" :popcorn:

Anyway - the intrepid Auto-Express reported joined the police on a

Quote:
one and a half hour sting and stopped people making calls every three minutes. And according to the officers mounting the operation - this is the tip of the iceberg. They are prosecuting 900 per month.



We were prosecuting more at one point - but this seems to have dropped by 25% and continuing to decline as the message is out there that we are "omnipresent and mean lean discretion on this one" :twisted: :twisted: :evil: :twisted: since the points system came in and appears to be in line with GMP who per the Mad Cats claimed their figures dropped from 1400 per month pre-penalty to 950 post-penalty introduction.

Merseyside have been publishing mugshots of their customers on the website within 24 hours of returning to base and filing the reports :twisted:

Merseyside's Inspector Woosey told the magazine that

Quote:
The police can get away with shaming people like this withoiut violating their rights because it is a public safety measure. But so as not to risk alienating these drivers - they do not name them and the photos appear only on the police web sites.


:scratchchin:

I bet those who are using these phones do not even visit the police website - nor do their pals? :? :? As said - local press have published photos in the past and they still continue all the same :roll:

They got some more hits on the site apparently when the Liverpool Echo/Southport Visiter/Chester Chronicle carried the "PR" story in the "summer"


Inspector Woosey accepts that many see using a Mobile as a "victimless" crime - but I happen to agree with him that holding the device, crocked to an ear does undermine handling of a vehilce. I would also like to see a ban on using these imposed on cyclists too :roll;

Auto-Express describes how Merseyside are copping these drivers. Personally I prefer our "Campaign and press releases" as I think this makes people aware before they set off. We do find these campaign drives do chip away at the problem as a constant - and more positively long term..:wink:

But per the article - the "sting" was set up on the A5036 in rush hour. This road links the docks at Bootle to the M58/M57 .

Quote:
It works like this. Plain clothes spotters hang around by the roadside. They are dressed casually and look as if they are waiting for a lift, or simply a group of mates stopping for a chat. What motorists do not spy are their police radios.

As soon as these spotters see a driver using his mobile phone in his hand - they radio through a description of the car/make/model/colour and lane position to the next members of the team. These are usually armed with a camera on the next bridge (there is a pedestrian bridge apparently) :roll:

"I have to think of the safety of my officers. They cannot wear high viz as this would let the motorists know what they are up to and they would drop their phones. Besides we wnat photos to provce their guilt The bridge gives our officers something to hide behind " says Inspector Woosey



:popcorn: How to dig a big hole between you MoPs and us here :roll: Our style? We make a press release - also on web site warning that we are on a campaign war path for a month. This does not mean we neglect other offences - it's just that we make a high profile stress on dangers to try to get messages across on a regular basis. It's no accident that we have less incidents per the stats. :wink: - though we are by no means "accident free" :roll: all the same.

At least neighbouring Cheshire does warn of its aircraft doing this same job :popcorn: You can only claim success that a law is working and people are complying to this rule if you take all measures possible to educate with carrots and sticks with some hard hitting facts to back why we need this law enforcing Letting people know they are likely to get copped at it does, oddly enough, deter :wink:

The final part is the pull to let them know they've been nicked. It seems a team of 6 officers pull in the offenders. An officer greets them and takes another photo which ties the driver to the scene at the time.

The drivers are asked to get out of their cars and are given a FPN

Inspector Woosey wrote:

About 95% admit their guilt. We do have some who spot the cameras and switch off their phones - but I've got cars parked in side roads to cop them. I even got one driver twice on the same day. He did admit he was an idiot


Statistics do suggest strongly that chatting on these phones affect concentration and reaction times.

AutoExpress asked some of those copped if they would give them a statement. Only two spoke to the reporters and neither wanted their name published nor their photograph taken even though it will appear on Merseyside's police website. One of the two copped told AutoExpress that he works as a chef - but his headset battery does not last long. He's now going to have a Bluetooth system set up and have the phone coming through the car's speakers. It's the first time he's been in trouble with the police in 15 years of driving since age 17. The other - a car mechanic - explained he was calling to say he'd be late for work. He's already been "pinged by scam" and this brings him to 6 points.

Car drivers were not the only ones copped - lorry drivers were also copped. The drivers refused to speak to AutoExpress but a company director did comment that all the fleet was fitted with "hands free" systems

Merseyside Police say they will continue their tactic until less are copped on the phone :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:48 
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Talking about mobile phones, I found the last line of this article interesting.

Daily Telegraph wrote:
Cars should be fitted with external antennas


What's all that about?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 13:36 
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In Gear wrote:

:listenup: YOU'VE BEEN SHAMED

It seems the police are putting photos of drivers copped on camera on the internet :popcorn:



Under what law are they allowed to hand out this punishment?

Also, do they have the person's permission to use their personal data in this way.

Wouldn't want then falling foul of the law now would we?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:26 
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Homer wrote:
In Gear wrote:

:listenup: YOU'VE BEEN SHAMED

It seems the police are putting photos of drivers copped on camera on the internet :popcorn:



Under what law are they allowed to hand out this punishment?

Also, do they have the person's permission to use their personal data in this way.

Wouldn't want then falling foul of the law now would we?


Its in a public place, there are no laws to prevent it.

I'd quite like to see a counter-campaign highlighting the poor quality of driving witnessed daily from panda car drivers, including use of mobile phones and radios. I'd also like to see just how many SCP employees break motoring offences with regularity. I suspect a great many.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 20:08 
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PeterE wrote:
Isn't that pretty much what I said?
Not quite.

You said
PeterE wrote:
AIUI it is not a proposal for new laws, but to lower the threshold at which a dangerous driving charge is considered in preference to careless driving or a fixed penalty.
.
AIUI there is no suggestion that there should be any change to the the threshold for charging dangerous driving. The intention is to ensure that the law as it currently exists should be applied properly.

That may result in some cases, that would currently face DWDC, in the future facing dangerous driving but NOT due to a lowering of threshold.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 20:37 
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fisherman wrote:
PeterE wrote:
Isn't that pretty much what I said?
Not quite.

You said
PeterE wrote:
AIUI it is not a proposal for new laws, but to lower the threshold at which a dangerous driving charge is considered in preference to careless driving or a fixed penalty.
.
AIUI there is no suggestion that there should be any change to the the threshold for charging dangerous driving. The intention is to ensure that the law as it currently exists should be applied properly.

That may result in some cases, that would currently face DWDC, in the future facing dangerous driving but NOT due to a lowering of threshold.


Agreed.

It looks to me like a nicely judged tightrope walk between 'common sense' and the baying for blood of the victims' groups.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 09:30 
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Dixie wrote:
Talking about mobile phones, I found the last line of this article interesting.

Daily Telegraph wrote:
Cars should be fitted with external antennas


What's all that about?


I would assume that by taking the antenna outside the car, it is removing the RF to a 'safer' distance from the user's head.

Presumably, as a metal car will act as a partial Faraday cage, the RF output of the handset needs to be at a higher level to counteract this.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 13:19 
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In Gear wrote:
Quote:
[...]They are prosecuting 900 per month.


We were prosecuting more at one point

And of those tugged, how many were actually driving dangerously?

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