Safe Speed Forums

Bombus, I really don't know how to get through to you on this. I genuinely, honestly, truthfully, have no idea what you're talking about.

Really.

Yes, really, really.



Bombus, stop with the pathetic insults. All you're doing is showing off what an aggressive (and pathetic) idiot you are.



So why haven't you replied to all my posts then?



Yet more arrogance from someone who doesn't even know what the word arrogant means.



More arrogance. I'm not deranged. I'm not lying. I'm not a moron.



He (bombus) doesn't want to reply to all my points because he knows that he simply doesn't have a reasonable reply to any of them, and so continues to childishly throw insults.




He doesn't want to give up speeding because he thinks he's above the law.



so he just ignores the posts where that's been suggested.



Look's who's talking.



I'd have more respect for him if he replied to all my points, instead of cherry-picking the single point on which he (thinks) he has a case.




Yet more childish insults because he doesn't have an argument.



All he (bombus) does is to repeat the same discredited crap time and time again.





He (bombus) hasn't made a single point of any worth whatsoever.



No you haven't. You've simply ignored them.



As I say, you can't get anywhere with him (bombus), because he deliberately doesn't listen.





This is very tedious. He'd (bombus) much rather make the same points again and again, so that you have to correct them again and again. The less the debate advances, the less incredibly stupid he looks. The word arrogant anyone?



How can you not know the answer to this? To suggest that you're a (very arrogant) idiot would be a gross understatement.



Oh right, so you think you have a right to break the law because otherwise you might be late somewhere. Wrong. Take responsibility for your actions and either leave earlier or be late.



Er, like what? Any examples? Any? At all?



More patronising nonsense from an idiot.



No, who?



Yeah, yeah. Do you really think that it's an argument to call someone names?

As for being obnoxious, well you're only saying that because I have a different opinion from you, and you just can't handle that.

As for being obtuse, can you come out with any examples at all?

Idiotic? Nope, I just have a different opinion from you. Wrong? On what exactly? Anyway, this from someone who simply doesn't have the ability to respond to the vast majority that I've said.

Irritating? Well I can't determine what you find irritating but one thing on here I have noticed is this:

The vast majority of people who moan about middle-lane hoggers think that the speed limit doesn't apply to them. Something for everyone to think about.



Oh my god, you are such an idiot! Please look up the word "arrogant" already!!!



See above about the word arrogant.



It's very boring making all these lame and made-up insults just because you can't handle someone having a different opinion from you.



Are you being sarcastic or are you actually talking about this other random person you keep alluding to?



Blah blah blah. You must really enjoy being such a nasty person to have come out with the huge number of vitriolic comments in all your posts that you have done.

Frankly, the more that you carry on the more I am sure that I am doing the right thing by impeding your progress on the roads. You've made it completely clear that the type of people I'm obstructing are aggressive, confrontational, arrogant and nasty.

And what is interesting is that another poster can pull me up for calling him an idiot, but says (virtually) nothing to you.

Says it all, really. The desire to act as a policeman invariably reflects a poor attitude towards driving.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

But I don't listen out for these things. So I wouldn't have been able to mention high-ish profile debates for either subject. I would suggest though that it's the issues on which people are more aggressive which are going to get raised more often.



I can't remember exactly what I said, but I think there were two points. One, that as soon as congestion starts to form people will move to whichever is the quickest lane. And that would include me so I would cease to be a middle-lane hogger. Second, what's the socially unacceptable reason to drive in the middle lane at the speed limit when the traffic is lighter?



But as I've probably said, the frustation goes both ways. Like when I want to have a pleasant drive on the A3, driving at the speed limit in the middle lane, and someone expects me out of their way.



Having had a quick read, I would say that in almost all cases responding with a question was justified. If you cannot respond to a similar question back, which bombus couldn't, then I don't think it's fair to ask it. Just the second-to-last question was a little bit unnecessary.



I shall repeat them but you won't accept them...

Mainly because I find it more pleasant, especially on a road like the A3. And to be a rolling roadblock in one of the faster lanes. Just like I am a rolling roadblock to those who see themselves as above the law when I drive on a local road.



Having had to look back at my previous post, it seems that your reply above is a bit strange, because I said this: "And how about making that same criticism of bombus?"

Gents - all - Please attack points not posters. If you have issues with one another (as opposed to one another's points) please take them off line.

Turning to the issue which I believe has caused the flame..

hjeg1 chooses to ride/drive in a middle lane at the (indicated-by-instrument) speed limit rather than left-most free lane, with traffic bunching up behind and threading past in the outside lane.

Were hjeg1 to move to the left in such conditions, bunching would be much reduced as the traffic wishing to travel faster than those overtaking hjeg1 could do so without having to wait for those first in line behind hjeg1 from doing so as these could do so in L2.

hjeg1 believes that he has made the roads safer by slowing the multitude down. Not so. This self-righteous policing action has raised tempers. Probably not by a lot in many cases, but probably by more than zero in nearly all cases. That takes time to work out of one's system and is a recipie for danger increase.

Were hjeg 1 doing this middle lane past a row of L1 lorries (going slower already), the effect would be physically the same to the untrained observer, but the frustration would be one of "c'est la vie" and unlikely to fray tempers to any such degree.

In addition to the odd nutter, there are many plausible reasons that people may go faster than the instrument-indicated speed limit on hjeg1's vehicle, not least of which is instrument tolerance. There may be an emergency vehicle back in the turbulence created behind losing vital seconds or minutes as a result of the heroic activity. An expectant mother.. An anaphalactic allergy in the making due to a sting.. An insulin reaction developing in a diabetic... Not all these reasons may be legal, but that, with respect, is not for hjeg1 to decide or impede.

Liebchen - this ist so true. Passing line of traffic in L1 - there never would be problem as bona fide reason to sit in L2 as overtaking traffic.

It when L1 empty und chap sit in the outer lane for no apparent reason that we have a problem. In EU - he would be fined for this. I hope he go to France now as they do target all Brit registered cars as "BOF! ALORS! zey are all fooools! :rolleyes:" seem to be in the mind of those pesky "flics"

But seriously - if not needing outer lanes - it a lot safer in L1. Even in a wave jam - it safer as you have the escape route to nip into should some person come charging at your rear end if you the last car in the sudden wave jam snag up. (I speak from experience of the eternal "if only I had pulled up behind that lorry in L1 instead of the vehicle in L2 as when I saw it just coming at me - I might just have got out of the way. (Only that would have meant some one else .. not me! )

Think about it though. Sitting in L2 cause road rage in some. Road ragers are truly the most dangerous of all out there. They lose all reason. I choose to drive with courtesy to others. If someone does something to annoy me - it just a shrug und diffuse the situation as safely as possible to me und mine first with the numpty running close second as I still owe that duty of care to him too,.

I note this morning thaat L Test theory extended. Syllabus extended. 50 questions feature - including as we see on a sample - two second rule., danger of tailgating und lane discipline Methinks a certain someone not too far away on t'internet just might fail this test

_________________
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I don't have the time to reply to posts right now because I'm at work; however, I do check on the forum frequently (yes my manager knows I moderate this forum). It appears my prior request for calm was ignored.

From now on I shall simply delete the full contents of any post considered to be blatant baiting, trolling or ad hominem.

However, I would greatly prefer to not be given a reason.

On the 'I am doing the speed limit so it cannot cause congestion' issue.

Lead vehicle is doing exactly 70, accurately determined by e.g. GPS
A block of traffic behind all doing exactly 70 spaced at 2 second intervals.
Lead vehicle slows by 1mph for some reason.
Next following vehicle notes they are closing on the lead vehicle and slows, now in order to recover their braking gap they have to slow to less than the speed of the leading vehicle.
Which means that the third vehicle now has to slow to less than the speed of the second vehicle.
This now continues rearwards.
Now if the lead vehicle corrects its speed the following vehicle will also accelerate back up to 70 but the wave of braking is not affected by this and will continue to propagate leading to unsafe bunching and lowered speeds.

This effect can be damped out somewhat by more experienced drivers leaving larger gaps and noticing the braking wave heading towards them, however dropping speed is inevitable.

The same effect can occur if the lead increases its speed slightly then corrects back to 70. The same effect can occur if any driver in the pack varies their speed slightly.

So the only way that controlling everyone else's speed from the front is going to work is if every single driver can maintain exactly 70 with no variation.

People cannot do this accurately enough and neither can cruise control.

Bunching and braking waves may of course be caused by many things not just mlms but there is no denying that they occur.

_________________
Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

Lane hoggers are causing the congestion that encourages/forces drivers to use lanes which aren’t meant to be for overtaking; hoggers do indeed continue to be hoggers because that’s the lane they should have and still can use. Yeah, passing drivers can use other lanes but they needn’t.
I personally don’t have much of an issue with it if any traffic isn’t being needlessly held up, but that’s not my point.


Is this not the essence of selfishness? You desire something for yourself (as opposed to need) and don’t care about the knock on effects so long as you get what you desire for yourself. Further, you are also deliberately placing yourself in a position that you know will create conflict; you are not acting in the common good, all for self interest.

regarding tu quoque:

That may be and I endeavoured to answer them, but that doesn’t absolve you from also answering the questions. My questions are valid and still outstanding. You will fulfil the fallacies if you refuse to answer them.


As I said, that is selfishness and is not a form of justification.
Before you inevitably go there: exceeding the speed limit arguably could also be seen as selfishness (I don’t want to spend longer driving that I need to remain safe and considerate to others, although the setting of an unnecessarily low speed limit is usually done for selfish reasons so it goes some way to cancelling the selfishness of the motorist); the difference is that only one of these can cause a significant problem.


Again this is not a justification, it is merely another step in the process. Can you justify acting as a rolling roadblock against passing traffic?

Just to throw my £0.02 worth in...

I drive a 56-plate A4 Quattro (brand new last October). Currently has just over 28,000 on the clock.

On a brand new set of tyres (235/45 on 17" rims) the speedo is bang on accurate according to the sat-nav.

Right now I'm almost to the wear markers and will be fitting 4 new tyres shortly. I now have an over-read of around 6-7mph. So when the speedo says 70mph I'm actually doing around 63-64mph.

hjeg1 - if I ever come across you hogging the middle lane you'll know it's me when I undertake you with the horn blasting making a "move over you utter tosspot" gesture with my right hand. Although maybe not, because I guess that happens to you a lot?

I'm afraid any kind of gesticulating would be lost on hjeg1 as he/she clearly believes he/she is in the right.

I suggest investing in one of these stickers for your car:



I have!

In the case of a rear end accident the law and legal basis is clear that those behind should take care to adjust speed distance and position to ensure no chance of running into the person in front.

In the case of a motorway suddenly people dont seem to think this applies anymore.

I regularly have to drive on 2 lane motorways here - and often feel people get bullied out of the fast/overtaking lane - by who??? By captain flash and others who deem themselves much more important than you or your family.

Happened again yesterday twice in 20 miles - one was "white van angry man" and another was a "captain flash".

It was quite clear there was slower lorries and vehicles ahead - and I took appropriate and timely action to ensure I was in fast overtaking lane.

When doing so these ijuts just fly up behind and flash to get you out of the way !!!

Now I'm not trying to police anything - just trying to get home safely. So what do I do?

1) jump out of the way - and slam on the anchors to prevent running into slower vehicles.
2) stay out and be accused of being a middle lane moron or an fast lane funnyman...
3) put up with the abuse the "more important" faster driver is giving me
4) stay put in slow lane and stay at 60mph and get home slower to allow more important people to fly by unhindered
5) stay in slow lane till the last minute and try and judge when to jump out in front of the "faster" more important drivers - risking having to slam on my own breaks when no one lets you out at last minute!!!
6) ensure I'm doing the speed limit and checking for the legal stuff and ignoring ijut features sitting behind me.

The answer is as easy as it is almost unpalatable for most on this thread in the forum - its 6) ensure I'm being legal - and ignore the abuser behind - if he ends up causing an accident thru agression or mistake - then its not my fault...

Unfortunately no one quite seems to take this perspective on board when commenting - and now we have threats of "removal" of trolls - or is that comments that the reviewer doesnt like or they believe to be a troll. This is a dangerous situation to get into - and will removes peoples faith in being able to comment openly and honestly on a forum for speed and motoring related issues.

For Smeg below the site with advice on stopping distances for cars, lorries and other vehicles - are as follows:

http://www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk/stopping.htm.

Not going to comment personally on Smeggy as he has done of me ;) regarding my actions which are fully legal - unlike these 2 drivers behind me... Regarding the comment below - this breaks rule 2) on the rules list ie "Don't insult people" - as Smeggy is casting aspertions on my driving abilities - whilst ignoring the fact these people driving in an agressive and bullying manner are being dangerous and breaking the law also.

Given your previous definition of what constitutes a safe gap (which you never substantiated when asked I might add), I can’t say I ‘m surprised that many drivers wishing to pass could well feel frustrated enough to demonstrate their displeasure towards you.




There are clear set rules governing acceptable styles of posting: Forum Rules
These have been created to encourage civil debates and are accepted by the great majority to be fair and just. All posters accepted the ‘terms and conditions’ of this site when they registered to post within the forums.
Everyone can be open and honest without needing to violate the forum rules.
If you wish to discuss this issue further then please PM me and we can continue.


edit - additional:
Editing a post after I've replied to it, shameful!

7) Remain in L2 (or L1 as required) until there is enough space behind in L3 (L2) to complete your manoeuvre without obstructing anyone.

8) if you fail and accidentally obstruct faster traffic get out of their way as quickly as you safely can.

I almost never get tailgated - even when driving the slow old campervan - because I make room for faster traffic. It's easy...




I'm sorry to have to inform you madam, but your Husband is dead. But don't worry, it wasn't his fault.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I tend to take the view that as you are overtaking, i.e in L2+, it is your responsibility to ensure that you can do so cleanly without causing a vehicle to the left to have to brake. The other side of this is that I would hope the other driver would appreciate that you have observed the situation and given them priority and will then complete their overtake in a timely fashion and return to the left promptly.

I do have fairly quick cars though so I can pick up speed easily which makes slowing briefly less of an issue.

Edit - I have to say though that I do not appreciate drivers pulling out so far from the vehicle ahead that I could pass them on the inside and get back out without getting close to the vehicle they are trying to overtake.

_________________
Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

The same for me.

If you are getting flashed tiwce in 20 miles, you are doing something worng.

NO ONE IS EXPECTING YOU TO THROW YOUR CAR INTO A SPACE JUST BIG ENOUGH FOR IT BETWEEN TWO CARS THAT ARE GOING SLOWER THAN YOU.

NO ONE HAS SAID THAT

But if there is space, and you can change lanes safely move out of their way.

KEEP LEFT UNLESS OVERTAKING , if you are overtaking no problem.

Why is it a difficult concept?

_________________
Oct 11 Birmingham Half Marathon. I am running for the British Heart Foundation.
http://www.justgiving.com/Rob-Taylor

As for the Speedo accuracy matter, I believe using a car Speedo you can’t accurately say you are doing 70 mph. It is, if you are truthful 70 (ish) mph +/- 1-2 mph.

Reasons:

- Most Speedos are not digital.Even if they are they will have the error +/- 10%, deepening on the size of wheel you have on your car.

For example on my car the manufacture fits several sizes of wheel.
185/65 R15 195/60 R15 205/55 R16 215/45 R17, and it would I assume be costly to calibrate the Speedo exactly to every car. Also you would need to calibrate the Speedo regularly, as the tyres would get smaller and smaller as they wear down.

- Assume your Speedo is analogue; below I have a picture of mine.




Points to note
It is divided into roughly increments of 2mph, these are the smallest lines, with thicker lines every ten mph, if you look closer (I know it is blurry) the labelled in increments are wider than the non labelled 10 mph increments.

So if I was to drive exactly at 70 mph as indicated by the Speedo, the needle would logically be in the exact centre of the white line, which is virtually impossible to maintain, even using curse control.
It is unbelievable arrogant and selfish to believe you are doing exactly 70 mph, using you Speedo, when there are so many errors in measuring your speed using this method. Even using GPS to measure the difference between your true speed and the speed indicated on the Speedo will have errors.

I know my Speedo under reads ~2 mph at 30mph.

However if people are using GPS to measure the speed, don’t be surprised if they are roughly 10 mph faster than you, once you factor in all the errors in the way your car measures its speed.


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!AND another thing, the car is not moving 0mph, note where the needle is sitting.This maybe because of the angle the picture was taken.
You would need to be directly in front of it an level with it, with a mirror behind the scale and needle (to ensure you where looking directly at the needle) to measure speed with any real accuracy.

_________________
Oct 11 Birmingham Half Marathon. I am running for the British Heart Foundation.
http://www.justgiving.com/Rob-Taylor

peegee, I'm not sure what you're describing makes you a MLM, as in your scenario you sound like you are passing traffic to your left.

A MLM is someone who is not keeping left when not overtaking, and that doesn't seem to apply.

As long as you pull in when there's a ten second + gap before you need to come out again, you're doing the right thing.

Again - please read my post - I've stated in my post that I was only talking about a 2 lane motorways stretch only. !!! A point even Site Admin seems to have missed in my post. This seems to be a regular occurance on these threads - and people are reading only what they want to see and no more.

I hope all these people jump out of the queue at the local shops or post office if there is a quicker shopper or if a person requiring stamps feels they are more important than you.

Certainly it seems that we law abiding drivers should jump out of the way on the road according to posters above. The option 7 and 8 says it all.

Another brief point here is that Mr Smith above is implying that I'd be responsible for the death of the irresponsibly driver behind me.
I find this completely unacceptable that my integrity should be drawn into question in such a way and that my guilt in any possible killing of a bullying and agressive driver following me should be mine to bare alone!!! Yet another breaking of rule 2 for the forum.

Ultimately I think these sort of response shows the true colours of this forum and what it really stands for.
These sort of responses from so called responsible people on the forum, is perhaps the biggest reason why we are a long way from giving people more responsibilities on the roads than they currently have at present.

Whoooosh!

Perhaps you would like to read my reply again? Clearly it went over your head.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Whatever peegee, you're clearly being intentionally obtuse. There is no accusation of being you being responsible, just that it could be avoidable.

Try to think of it this way:

"In road safety, its not who is right, but who is left!"