Safe Speed Forums

I seemed to particularly get this on the A4 through Heston, used to drive me nuts.

Edited twice because I can't even spell the second time round. D'Oh!

Bombus and Ern - Thank you for your posts. I could not have posted better. I feel a lot more optimistic that we can help educate folk.


I have always been trained that punishshment should be my last resort if all else failed. I still think the training I received as a youngster was the most correct way to earn respect and a develop a good working relationship with the public, who are, by and large, normally decent folk.

I do deal with low lifes. I know how base and "maliciously evil" human beings can become. But I also recognise that we deal with a relatively small percentage of these with regard to the whole population out there al the same.

However, as we all know - only takes one bad apple to stain the rest.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

IG, would you mind telling us how you would view MLMs in a professional capacity, and what action, if any, you would take to further their driving education?

I might of missed this in an earlier post -

Be prepared to let vehicles in a lane to your left into 'your' lane to overtake a slower vehicle in front of them.

I raise this with the idea that if drivers (potential MLMs) feel that they will not end up stuck in the left lane behind a truck they might be more inclined to use it.

Earlier comments about 1mph passing speeds not being acceptable still apply of course.

_________________
Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

If they are seriously holding up the traffic - we will have a quiet word over lane discipline and safety/consideration to others. One thing I always tried to get across - whether I was booking or deciding to just let them off with a "lecture" in the past - is to always be aware how your action can affect another road user. You may not think your manoeuvre to be "dangerous" and in all probablity it isn't - but another road user may perceive differently and your evaluation should always take that possibility into consideration.

Nine times out of ten - they really do not think they are causing much mayhem and are genuinely surprised when a load of cars thunder past after we've just taken them into the hard shoulder or led them off the fast road even

Our lads once prosecuted a woman for doing 30 mph in the outer lane of our patch of the A1 Got reported in our local rag She apparently "wanted to turn right" (She was not some old biddy. She was worryingly in her late 40s. ) We still explained to her why the driving was dangerous and inconsiderate to other people though. It's not enough to just issue notices of prosecution in reality. You stand a better chance of such muppets not re-offending if they get a fair but polite explanation of why they were pulled up for it.

But like every thing else - we still come back to OAP or rather COAST.

The driver in L1 needs to use his mirrors .. MSM.. PSL. The driver in l2/L3 overtaking the series in L1/L2 - by virtue of his own COAST will see the intention and plan his drive accordingly - allowing courtesy hopefully to prevail

I think another reason why more important to focus on driver standards in reality as by doing this - we also start to manage, better, the unsafe/unwise speed issues at the same time

Of course - COAST is not a "magic formula" - but it does help reduce the accident potential, along with the speed outcome all the same

Ironically BRAKE do agree with the need for better and consistent training

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

I believe sitting in the middle lane is a problem; however just sitting in A lane is a problem too. Driving on the M1 made me a aware of this. People where sitting in lane 3, doing about 60 mph while lane 1 and 2 where pretty much free. Lane one had a couple of slow moving cars, lane two completely free. I think this was a result of a lorry over taking another. I enjoyed the freedom of these two lanes for a couple of minutes before I had to move into Lane to overtake the lorries. I believe sitting in lanes is a common problem, which is not exclusively preserved for the middle lane. We notice the middle lane sitters more because they get in the way more.

_________________
Oct 11 Birmingham Half Marathon. I am running for the British Heart Foundation.
http://www.justgiving.com/Rob-Taylor

1) slow lorries over taking each other in l1 and l2
2) or a less confident driver forced to overtake in l3 these two monsters doing a 2 mile overtake.
3) the people rushing along at 80 to 90+ mph behind in l3

Whats the choice - the cause of the problem (lorries) - the percieved problem (l3 slow drivers) - or finally the percievers (too fast l3 drivers).

All have a case as to their validity in law expept the "too fast l3 drivers".

a) Lorries are allowed to overtake in 3 lane motorways
b) Cars do not have to drive exactly to the 70mph limit - and as such should be applauded if they are in fact driving to the conditions (ie heavy rain/fog etc).

So overall in terms of the law and how it should be patrolled, then the slow lorries and driver in l3 should be the last people "plod" should be pulling off to the side of the road. Not something I'm happy about - but unfortunately captain flash and officer above can moan, whinge and flash their headlamps as much as they like but until the authorities admit the error of their ways (and laws) and start to resolve the above problems - then we all have no confidence in what they are doing. We will continue to be burdened by an unfair and unjust system being patrolled by people with a very blinkered view on where the problems are.

No I think the problem is poor lane discipline, and being to lazy to move out of the lane you are in.The lorries are just something that needs to be negotiated, it is easy to blame them (and it is frustrating, but not their fault. I am sure the don’t enjoy it) If drivers thought about what they where doing you would not end up with a line drivers in Lane 3 going 60 mph with lanes 1 and 2 pretty much free

You can fail your driving test for holding up traffic, if you are going to overtake on the motorway and your vehicle is not restricted you should have the common courtesy to travel at the speed limit (Safety permitting). If you are not confident in using the motorway, get some extra training I am sure a driving instructor would be willing to help there.

Sitting in the same lanes (2 or 3) when there is no reason to reduces the capacity of the motorway.

_________________
Oct 11 Birmingham Half Marathon. I am running for the British Heart Foundation.
http://www.justgiving.com/Rob-Taylor

Unfortunately, deliberate lane hoggers are so arrogant and opinionated that they are the very last people who would ever consider training. They're the perfect ones and the lunatics behind them are the ones who need training, don'tchaknow. No number of other drivers, officials, experts etc telling them otherwise will ever change their minds. Why do we have to share the country, let alone the roads, with such halfwits? They should be put on an island where they can impede each other to their hearts' content. Otherwise, the only solution is to wait for them to die off and try very hard to educate the new generation properly from the outset.

Frankly, anyone who thinks that 80mph is "rushing along" needs all the motorway training they can get. On countless miles of motorway and dual carriageway, it's a perfectly reasonable speed, whatever the NSL might technically be. I would suggest that anyone who claims to be perturbed by such speeds is simply perturbed by motorways in general. When exactly does the "rushing along" start? 71mph? 79mph? 80mph? It's ridiculous to say that x mph is OK but (x+1) mph is "rushing". It's ridiculous to be so preoccupied by numerical speed, and current policy obviously isn't helping there.

_________________
Paul Smith: a legend.

"The freedom provided by the motor vehicle is not universally applauded, however: there are those who resent the loss of state control over individual choice that the car represents. Such people rarely admit their prejudices openly; instead, they make false or exaggerated claims about the adverse effects of road transport in order to justify calls for higher taxation or restrictions on mobility." (Conservative Way Forward: Stop The War Against Drivers)

r.tee - your avoiding my example - the bottomline is that when I'm in a queue passing same scenario - at a reasonable speed with 10% of 70mph etc etc (as mentioned by others) - then why do we have to suddenly jump out of the way for captain flash! because like most of these drivers we are expected to "get out of his mluddy way!!" Nonsence - the amount of times you come across a true 50mph l3 silly person - hardly ever if your truthful.

bombus - you said it - what speed is hurrying along? In my mind the law states that if I go above 70mph by an amount defined by each local camera partnership then I put my licence in danger... So should I suddenly jump out of the way for someone with scant regard for their licence or the law as it stands (not that I agree with it as I've mentioned before). I'm not preoccuppied by any number other than the points I may accumulate on my licence due to the parasitic cameras/vans wasting time and our money... When we have enough balls to vote a government in thats got the common sense to sort this - then I'll be first to the ballot box on the day that election occurs ;)

As for your description of lane hoggers - this reminds me of the arrogant speeders that would want lawful drivers to jump out of their road pronto when they rush up behind lawful overtakers of a lorry/buses/slower cars etc within the law.

Bottomline is that the police and other bodies should have the gumption to advise that we change the laws to increase the speed limits in line with quality of roads.
For an example solution here we are
110kmh (70mph) Older dual carriageways with old junctions with no slip roads
120kmh(75mph) for dual with slip roads
130 (81) dual+emergency lane and slip roads/motorway sections with lots of slip road junctions
140 (87) full motorway with long distances between junctions.
Better enforcement of larger slow vehicles in l1 also... I could expand further.

But unfortunately this solution would still not be fast enough for some with an expand head and view of their capabilities to travel faster. :)

peegee, you are clearly now being deliberately obtuse. Noone is saying you should abort an overtake just so someone can go faster. Get with it!

I think you should take the time to read my post.?



I never really said everyone should move out of my way? However if you are overtaking do it as quickly and as SAFLEY possible. If not you are unnecessarily holding people up. So what if they want to go >80 mph. Not your problem, not mine it is there choice as they autonomous beings free to make their own choices legal or not. Move out of their way don’t pi$$ them off, as that will make them more dangerous to you and others.

My post was more about why sit in a lane, going slowly, when there are two lanes free?

What is difficult about moving lanes if there is SPACE and it is SAFE? I do it and usually drive between 70 –80 mph. I learnt on the German autobahn there is always someone who wants to go faster than you!!!! (I was cruising at 100mph!) Over there they move out of your way, it is not difficult. It makes your life easier and you don’t have someone getting mad behind you. I spend my work life teaching young men to be CONSIDERATE, to be honest with attitudes similar to yours why do I bother?

In your posts you hold the law up as shield, I personally (in the driving context) be illegal then dead, or cause a death. I read in Paul Ripleys Expert Driving “every fresh manoeuvre demands that you take account of three essential pre-conditions:

Safety.
Legality.
Consideration of you effect on other road users.

I believe in that order.

In your post you only focus on one, but strangely you believe it leads to safety?

Yes you can sit in Lane 2 at 70 mph, it is as you point out legal, but I bet you, there are times despite legality, it is not as safe as you believe.

P.S. Sorry for spelling a grammar errors, the poster has had a few fine German beers PROST!!!



P.P.S Happy to see you are getting better Mr Smith

_________________
Oct 11 Birmingham Half Marathon. I am running for the British Heart Foundation.
http://www.justgiving.com/Rob-Taylor

Inconsiderate driving is an offence, so getting someone's way is illegal. Or so I believe. Breaking one law in order to inflict another law on others? How nasty.

_________________
Andrew.

Seem to remember young daughter telling me that she was advised to try to drive at 28/29 in 30 or fail - she was under the impression that she was expected to keep up with traffic and keep in that band , irrespective of anything. Few years on and CBT she has changed her opinion.Is this still common learner practice ? If so possibly some of the problems today are linked to the production line teaching to pass the test ,not learning to drive, where appropriate speed is( or was ) also taught.

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Safety. - flying up behind a car and harassing it because it aint doing 80+
Legality. - doing 80+ isnt legal!
Consideration of you effect on other road users. - perhaps these speeders loose their consideration every time they step in the car...

Try driving along the motorway doing a safe, legal and considerate 70-75mph... You'll be suprised to see old ladies,middle ages reps, families with kids etc etc and all the rest flying past at 80+... All breaking the "current" laws - you cant hide from this - it is considered unsafe and illegal by current government and so get with the programme and get used to it - and dont hassle those people trying to stay legal.

Just try it for a day - and you'll find overtaking lorries at 65mph no fun - You'll also realise thats it safer to stay out in l2 unless there is more than 500 feet in front of the lorry to pull into (to allow it to stop safely). To get 20 feet past the front of a lorry and pull into l1 with 44 ton breathing on your shoulder must be one of the most dangerous things you could do - and all for the sake of captain flash and his next meeting thats much more important than you or your safety...

And from whos point of view do we measure it all? Someone driving a car with a speedo overreading by the maximum legal amount, but who isn't aware of this, is cruising along at an indicated 70. They get passed by a car which, based on the belief that they're genuinely doing 70, simply must be doing close to 80 and is therefore worthy of nothing less than full on contempt with a side order of tut-tutting. Meanwhile, the driver of the car that's just gone "rushing" past, is also cruising along at an indicated 70...

_________________
Chris

Most modern cars are with 1 or 2 mph of each other. Its nonsence to believe the extents that your talking about without having "mods" on your car ie alloys/tyres that were not there when you got car from the factory.

This sort of statement above that purports that driving wafting by is actually doing the speed limit - get real - if they were as close as you say - then you'd find us following each other for miles trying to overtake within the small difference!!!

People like to speed - whether its because they like breaking the law - or refuse to believe it is the law - or like going "really" fast - then whatever way you look at it most people you see pushing past you quickly whilst sitting at 70 - are in fact breaking the law.

If you look at acpo and the law - then there is a high degree of proof to be provided if your going to book someone for "dawdling" or "getting in the way of speeding cars" -

Just think of the court scene - m'lord the defendant was doing 70 in the following video evidence" - the judge is likely to question the "abilities" and the credance of the officers in question if l3 has people going past like bats out of hell - and this guy is doing a steady 70!!! Nuts or what.

I've yet to meet someone who's been thru court for dawdling at the speed limit - but I know loads that have been caught speeding in l3 ;)

On which UK motorway is 75mph legal?




You could overtake them at 70 instead... Or are you suggesting the lorries are doing 65?



I generally give heavies twice their own length before pulling back in front of them - 500 feet sounds a bit excessive to me.



But you don't have to pull in that close to the HGV, you're only doing so because you're allowing yourself to be intimidated by the driver coming up on your backside. If you've got a choice between making a potentially risky lane change just to let the faster driver get by, or holding them up for an extra second or two (and that's all it should usually take for you to safely clear whatever it is to your left) whilst you get into a safer position to make the lane change, then take those extra few seconds. Just don't take the piss as well.

In my experience, most faster drivers will understand the need to ease off and wait for a slower vehicle ahead of them to clear an even slower vehicle to the left, it's only a tiny minority who'll storm right up onto your rear bumper and flash/honk/gesture the instant they have to lift off even a fraction (or possibly even before that). But if you then stay out in front of them when there's nothing stopping you from safely returning to the lane to your left, expect some of that majority to then get frustrated and start flashing/honking/gesturing...

_________________
Chris

For a lot of drivers the whole process of overtaking on Motorways seems different to the one on any other road.

On a SC just about everyone overtaking will accelerate to pass the slower vehicle, cutting down the exposure to danger time etc. The same often goes for dual carriageways, though not to quite the same extent, the thought that you may possibly baulk traffic in lane 2 seems to register with most drivers.

But on a three laner things become very different. A car catching a vehicle in lane 1 at a rate of +5mph, will all too often move into lane 2 without making any change in speed despite the traffic in that lane going somewhat faster than he is. They can be as much of a menace as a MLM. I get frustrated with elephant racers but at least I understand they are at the limit of their vehicles performance. When Reginald Molehusband dawdles into a lane of faster traffic without increasing pressure on the go pedal he see no reason to match his speed to that of the lane he's just entered. I guess it has to do with that extra lane, but I still don't get it.

And then there's those who seem totally incapable of maintaining a steady speed and who you'll pass and re-pass ad nauseum as they speed up and slow down, often by quite startling amounts.

A lot more needs to be done to educate all drivers on using motorways not just the MLMs

Barkstar

_________________
The difference between intelligence and stupidity is that intelligence has limits.

so what you are saying is that you find it difficult and somewhat stressful to drive on a motorway and stay within the law (speed limit). I wholeheartedly agree with you.

I can't think of a more stressful or dangerous situation that 3 lanes of traffic moving at similar speeds with little room to move.

Its great that we agree on this fundamental point. What i struggle with is the fact that i think the answer lies in removing the artificial and unsafe legal barrier...and in the meantiime i'll ignore the law and do whats safe instead whereas you feel browbeaten by the state to obey the law despite the fact that your natural instinct tells you its unsafe. what stronger example do we need that in this respect the law is not just an ass but we have a legally enforced hazard.

if i as a manager forced you into doing something that was unsafe and heaven forbid you were in a fatal accident then i'd be up for corporate manslaughter....our legislators should face the same sanction.

may I suggest that you write to your mp and demand that he acts to remove this conflict on those who seek to conform to the law but know that its wrong.

welcome to our world.