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 Post subject: False ASBO payout
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 07:25 
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6272062.stm

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'False' Asbo woman wins payout

A woman given an Anti Social Behaviour order (Asbo) based on false allegations made against her is to be compensated by the council that issued it.

Manchester City Council will pay the woman £2,000 for what the Local Government Ombudsman called an "abuse of power of nightmarish proportions".

The ombudsman's report said proper inquiries into the claims would have cast doubt on their veracity.

The council "fully accepted" the report and has reviewed its practices.

Council officers were called in, in June 2004, when a woman known as Miss A complained she was being subjected to anti-social behaviour by her neighbour, Mrs X.

Miss A claimed that as a result of the behaviour, which she alleged included threats of violence, intimidation, verbal abuse and playing music too loudly, she had become ill.

However, the report revealed there were no attempts to corroborate the claims with either neighbours or the police.

And Mrs X was only made aware of the allegations when she was served court papers for a hearing in December 2004, which led to an interim Asbo being granted.

She contested the decision and more than 20 letters were written in her defence, leading to the Asbo being withdrawn, in court, three months later.

Ombudsman Jerry White said: "It is extraordinary that the allegations were never put to Mrs X before the council sought an Asbo against her, at first behind her back and then by serving papers on her just days before a court hearing.

"It is extraordinary too that it never sought corroboratory evidence from third parties.

"This was an abuse of nightmarish proportions."

'Convincing evidence'

The council was found guilty of maladministration and told it should review the way in which cases like these are handled.

Deborah McLaughlin, council director of housing, said the authority "fully accepted the findings" and apologised to Mrs X .

"We have learnt lessons from the way we dealt with Mrs X in 2004. In 2005 we fully reviewed our procedures," she said.

"[But] we should also point out that our initial application for an anti-social order was confirmed by the court in the face of convincing evidence and was not something carried out in isolation by our officers."


I'm surprised if this is the only one - the standard of evidence has seemed pretty thin in some cases reported! :(
Still at least they have tightened up on procedures, eh?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 07:35 
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And today we have the taxman asking for power to take money direct from your bank account without a court order. :shock:

Of course, they say this power would only be used in exceptional cases and that, in essence, they never make mistakes. :roll:

So, guilty. You prove your innocence.

Fisherman's views on the ASBO would be interesting as he has said before that there must good evidence for an ASBO to be granted.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 08:27 
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The tax man should not be exempted from the court process. There may be a case for fast track access to the court to freeze an account prior to a court case. but if police or tax men cannot put a strong case to a court then it should not happen. The frozen accound should then be reviewed by the court 7 days and 1 month later giving the account owner a chance to gather counter evidence.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 09:09 
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malcolmw wrote:
Fisherman's views on the ASBO would be interesting as he has said before that there must good evidence for an ASBO to be granted.


Indeed, I was skeptical of what he said at the time. The council are certainly at fault here but the magistrates must have rubber stamped it as well. Why didn't they ask to see all this evidence?

If they felt there was evidence she was such a danger to others in the three month interim period why not arrest and charge her?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:23 
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Me too, I am very wary of systems where a great deal of power is given to a body which has limited and/or untrustworthy controls.

The whole ASBO thing is dodgy, IMHO, and if it is really necessary it should be used with the greatest of care and with maximum safeguards.

I dislike this culture of "lack of trust" and "react first, check details later".

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 13:10 
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It's not just trustworthyness it's competence.

DVLA, Local Authorities, IR all bloody useless.

I've been telling the tax man about my company car for months, the still haven't changed my tax code despite at least 6 call! Useless.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 13:23 
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supertramp wrote:
Me too, I am very wary of systems where [...]
any Council/Law Court or Govt agency has had ANYTHING to do with it.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 14:25 
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Don't for get the son of CSA where they will be able to dip into the bank accounts of absent fathers. They're looking to remove their passports too.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 14:40 
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Why not revoke their driving licenses as well. :roll:

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 14:44 
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malcolmw wrote:
Why not revoke their driving licenses as well. :roll:


How would the government get their taxes then? Speeding fines, fuel duty, etc. :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 16:05 
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Zamzara wrote:
The council are certainly at fault here but the magistrates must have rubber stamped it as well. Why didn't they ask to see all this evidence?

The court were clearly not satisfied enough to grant a full ASBO but sufficiently to grant an interim one.

Its easy with hindsight to say that was wrong, but at the time they had been told of someone under such strain that they had become ill, and are required to consider that person as well as the defendant.
If an elderly relative of yours told you that she had been made ill by the bad behaviour of a neighbour would you want an immediate ASBO and then sort out the details or would you want the details sorted first and an ASBO months later? The government assume you would want quick action and have written the law accordingly.

The court must have asked for more evidence or they would either have thrown it out or granted a full ASBO.

Bear in mind that courts must take the law as they find it and the government brought in this law, with its use of hearsay evidence, to protect vulnerable people.
Any ASBO requires you to obey the law and to avoid specific actions which cause harrassment alarm or distress. All of which you should be doing anyway.

I haven't seen the full ombudsman report yet, did they criticise the court or just the council?


Zamzara wrote:
If they felt there was evidence she was such a danger to others in the three month interim period why not arrest and charge her?
A question that I would expect the court to have asked at the time. The usual answer is that the victim is too frightened to give a statement or evidence in court.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 16:10 
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malcolmw wrote:
Fisherman's views on the ASBO would be interesting as he has said before that there must good evidence for an ASBO to be granted.

This was an interim order so the court were clearly not satisfied that there was enough evidence for a full ASBO.

What I find interesting is that, on a site which frequently complains that defendants facing speeding charges are not believed in court, so many people are complaining when a court did believe someone. A someone with nothing personal to lose or gain which ever way the verdict went.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 16:22 
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fisherman wrote:
What I find interesting is that[...]

What I find interesting is that you seem to fight your corner well, without any abuse - well done. :clap:

Both my brother and father-in-law are magistrates and I do enjoy giving them a hard time... :D but they don't have the same power of argument that you do - they get quite riled :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 17:24 
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Good comments, BottyBurp, I also appreciate fisherman's perspective & delivery.

fisherman wrote:
What I find interesting is that, on a site which frequently complains that defendants facing speeding charges are not believed in court, so many people are complaining when a court did believe someone. A someone with nothing personal to lose or gain which ever way the verdict went.

Surely the applicant for the ASBO had her own reasons for wanting it to go through?

I would also like to take issue with the "react first, check later" points made by fisherman.
It is indeed a gallant intention to "protect the ill lady", but if the quality of the controls is so poor, perhaps the "ill lady" is not really ill, and has dishonorable motives for serving an ASBO on the other party... who could well suffer greatly because of the reckless and unjustified use of the ASBO (evan an interim one).
And some of these legal/reputation type things can be very nasty genies that cannot be adequately returned to their bottle.

Sorry, fisherman, but this is too serious to be treated so inconsiderately by the legal profession.

It is not rocket-science to carry out some basic checks.

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p.s. I am still absolutely floored by Paul's death. May 2008 be the greatest ever for SafeSpeed. His spirit lives on.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 18:13 
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There is no doubt that there are some "sloppy" magistrates out there, but in this case I think Fisherman has identified some relevant factors:
The Council certainly thought the first court verdict validated their actions...
Quote:
"[But] we should also point out that our initial application for an anti-social order was confirmed by the court in the face of convincing evidence and was not something carried out in isolation by our officers."

And if you read the article it WAS the court which overturned it three months later.
I see this as a criticism of the council, not the court.
That said, it can be difficult for the lay person to know what evidence to bring to court, and in this case the defendant seemed particularly unprepared - and I suggest the court should have realised this and asked the question sooner as to whether those seeking the order (the council) had investigated the allegations - but maybe it was a busy day! 8-)

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 18:20 
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fisherman wrote:
What I find interesting is that, on a site which frequently complains that defendants facing speeding charges are not believed in court, so many people are complaining when a court did believe someone. A someone with nothing personal to lose or gain which ever way the verdict went.

Sorry, I can't be understanding this correctly. The person equivalent to the "defendant facing speeding charges" in this case is the person facing the ASBO. They were not believed by the court and the interim order was granted.

In both cases the complainant is believed not the defendant.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 19:59 
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My next door neighbour believes I am the devil incarnate just because I want to build a garage.
She has stooped to 5 pages of lies and half truths to win her battle.
I expect to be on an interim ASBO soon.

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“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 20:15 
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malcolmw wrote:
Why not revoke their driving licenses as well. :roll:


actually they already can :o


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 20:23 
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supertramp wrote:
It is indeed a gallant intention to "protect the ill lady", but if the quality of the controls is so poor, perhaps the "ill lady" is not really ill, and has dishonorable motives for serving an ASBO on the other party...

The problem is that ASBO law, in the early stages at least, is civil law with hearsay evidence admissible. So the court only have to decide which version of events is more likely to be true.
On the one hand you have the council officer who will have brought a list of alleged harassment episodes and evidence of the harm suffered by the injured party - usually a doctors letter confirming stress or depression.
On the other hand you have the proposed subject of the ASBO who says it wasn't her.
If it was a criminal case with the need for a beyond reasonable doubt verdict it would probably be fairly easy for the subject to provide the necesary doubt. In a balance of probabilties scenario, reasonable doubt does not work.

The court imposed an interim ASBO. Unlike a criminal case where there would be a punishment an ASBO is only intended to prevent further offending. As the subject wasn't doing any of the alleged activities it doesn't seem that this would be too much of a problem to obey.
In this case the subject was given adequate time by the court to obtain evidence to overturn the order. Which happened the first time the subject presented any evidence.
I am sure it was a nasty experience for her and should not have happened but when evidence - for either side in a case - is presented in the form of a list of events backed by evidence of illness as result of those activities and only countered by "I didn't do it" the result is pretty sure to go with the evidence.

Courts can't guess, they must go with the evidence. In this case it seems that the presenting officer for the council fully believed the evidnce he gave so there would be no chance of a court picking up signs of nervousness commonly associated with knowingly telling lies under oath.


supertramp wrote:
reckless and unjustified use of the ASBO (evan an interim one).
I have seen no suggestion that the granting of the ASBO was reckless, or in the light of the evidence presented, that it was unjustified.


supertramp wrote:
Sorry, fisherman, but this is too serious to be treated so inconsiderately by the legal profession.
As far as I can see the court went with the evidence on both occasions.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 20:27 
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Ernest Marsh wrote:
That said, it can be difficult for the lay person to know what evidence to bring to court, and in this case the defendant seemed particularly unprepared - and I suggest the court should have realised this and asked the question sooner as to whether those seeking the order (the council) had investigated the allegations - but maybe it was a busy day! 8-)

I am sure the court will have taken into account the short notice she was given, and that may be what persuaded them to issue the interim order. They will also have taken into account the list of alleged offences and the fact that the complainant had been made ill by them.


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