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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 00:01 
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civil engineer wrote:
Man Made Climate Change is a Politically convenient theory.

It's 'an inspector calls' written large!

It will go the way of the other western 'leftist' trends. It will die and it will be replaced in about 20 yaers buy some new great crusade.


Cometary/asteroidal impacts. More Public money is required to track the trajectories of Near-Earth Objects and research a defence system from such impacts. All this will be proven by the Postern Report and another failed Yank politician (dressed as Darth Vader) in the film 'An Incomplete Truth'. The Western Governments will form a committee called the Planetary Impact Evaluation and, as ever, it will all be PIE in the sky...

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 14:03 
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According to the BBC News, Gore is now an advisor to "President" Brown.

Quote:
CLIMATE CHANGE
Mr Brown commissioned and accepted the results of the report on climate change by Sir Nicholas Stern in October 2006, which said that global warming could shrink the world economy by 20%. He has supported EU and British targets for carbon reductions. So he is on board for international action over climate change, which has come increasingly to dominate world economic discussions. In March 2007 he said: "The foundation of this must of course be a new international agreement to reduce greenhouse gas emissions beyond 2012." He added: "My ambition is to build a global carbon market, founded on the EU Emissions Trading Scheme and centred in London." He has even appointed the former US Vice President Al Gore as an adviser and action on global warming is another issue on which he is likely to differ from President Bush.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 09:04 
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MGBGT wrote:
All this will be proven by the Postern Report and another failed Yank politician (dressed as Darth Vader) in the film 'An Incomplete Truth'. The Western Governments will form a committee called the Planetary Impact Evaluation and, as ever, it will all be PIE in the sky...


Ahem... They're called Americans, not yanks, and they're real people with feelings - just like us.

And by the way, 'we' didn't win the war either. If it wasn't for them 'Yanks' we would be speaking German, although when I look at England today, I think it would have been a good thing. :roll:

Paul wouldn't have had to go to all the trouble of creating SS for a start.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 09:41 
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All very interesting… I’m sure a crunch will come some time and it will not be an environmental catastrophe. Industry, and the economy relies on massive energy reserves. Once upon time we used coal to heat water and produce steam to power industrial machines. Then we became wise and discovered the virtues of electricity, and built power stations to power industry. We then discovered oil; we heated and distilled it to produce various forms of liquid to power mobile machines such as cars and plans.

So what happens when the oil runs out? We can still use nuclear energy to produce electricity, but have you ever heard of an airliner powered by batteries? What about the military? Ever seen an electric missile or what about the 2nd electric tank division?

With current technology, and considering the prototypes methods energy production methods, the current energy dependant economy will simple not have enough energy to continue to grow. Will that result in a global recession like never see before? Will the military have the energy reserves to put down civil unrest? Or will they be drawn in to a global scramble to secure energy reserves for their economy? And will that result in a shift of current power structures? Who knows?

If we want a reduction in global population, I don’t think that we shall have to wait too many years too see it. Indeed we already have the world’s major powers strategically positioning themselves around the globe in order to secure future energy reserves. And the prices have already begun to rise as China’s energy heavy economy comes on line.

Oh…what a bleak outlook I have!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 09:47 
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Quote:
"My ambition is to build a global carbon market, founded on the EU Emissions Trading Scheme and centred in London."


In other words, he hopes to corner the market in snake oil. Absolutely astounding!!!


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 09:52 
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Ohh, regarding the initial post and the channel 4 programme. I do believe that the scientists the film maker brought together are not what you would call impartial. Their work is funded, in sometimes convoluted means, by the oil lobby. Now, do you really trust what they have to say?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 09:54 
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vistaed wrote:
So what happens when the oil runs out? We can still use nuclear energy to produce electricity, but have you ever heard of an airliner powered by batteries? What about the military? Ever seen an electric missile or what about the 2nd electric tank division?

<snip>

Oh…what a bleak outlook I have!


I wouldn't worry. There are plenty of 'prototype' energy sources that are viable. The only reason we aren't using them already is because there is a heavy investment in oil making its use convenient and relatively inexpensive. Set up costs of alternatives will be high (as was the set up cost of oil/petrol/gas distribution) and running costs may be slightly higher also, but it's all relative. The thing is that even a tiny percentage increase in costs just for the sake of it when there is a cheaper alternative is commercial suicide, which is why we aren't seeing these alternatives in use already.

They exist though.....


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 09:57 
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That does lessen my worries, but what are those alternatives?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:06 
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vistaed wrote:
So what happens when the oil runs out?


The oil won't run out for a long time and when it does it won't run out suddenly. What will happen is that the price will gradually rise, and as the price rises the market desire to develop and produce alternatives becomes ever greater.

Long before the oil runs out we might well have fusion reactors - and if energy is a plentyful as fusion reactors might make it - synthesizing gaseous or liquid fuels will be 'no problem at all'.

I think this idea of a 'oil runs out' cliff failure is utter nonsense, actually.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:12 
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SafeSpeed wrote:

I think this idea of a 'oil runs out' cliff failure is utter nonsense, actually.


:yesyes: I can't see BP shares falling anytime soon, in fact ever really, the oil companies know the true situation and will bring out the alternatives when they deem it necessary.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:12 
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As has probably already been said Canada has greater oil reserves than Saudi Arabia. There are sources that have hardly been touched.

In addition Coal (a source of liquid, gas and solid fuel) is still in abundant supply in many countries.

We are decades away from anything aproaching a run-out situation. By then Bio-fuel (ethanol etc) and Hydrogen, both can be run in an internal combustion engine, will be commonly available at the pumps.

No need to panic for at least another generation yet.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:15 
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Interesting to see if he takes this up. I know $10k is nothing in monetary terms but in terms of face loss...

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php? ... icle/3533/

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Al Gore’s doom-mongering documentary An Inconvenient Truth - in which he turned his rather drab PowerPoint presentation on climate change into a cinematic warning to the world about man’s toxic impact on the planet - has generated miles of newspaper column inches. He’s won widespread praise from greens for converting ‘ordinary people’ (ie, the previously uncaring popcorn-chomping masses) to the green cause. He’s been given a telling-off by some climate scientists for twisting the data in order to send a moral message about mankind’s destructiveness (1). Others have accused him of being a hypocrite: apparently Gore, who has two very big homes, used 221,000 kilowatt hours of electricity in 2006, 20 times the American national average (2). And now, in the latest post-Truth twist, Gore has been challenged to a $20,000 wager that he is wrong on global warming.

‘The aim of the bet is really to promote the proper use of science, rather than the opinion-led science we have seen lately.’ Scott Armstrong is professor of marketing at the Wharton Business School at the University of Pennsylvania, and an international expert on forecasting methods. Last week he faxed and posted (to be on the safe side) his ‘Global Warming Challenge’ to Gore. He challenged the former US vice-president to a 10-year bet in which both parties will put forward $10,000. Gore would put his money on his forecasts that temperature will rise dangerously in the coming decade, while Armstrong will put his money on what is referred to as the ‘naïve model’: that is, that temperatures will probably stay the same in the coming years. ‘Gore says there are scientific forecasts that the Earth will become warmer very rapidly. But I have not found a scientific forecast that supports that view. There are forecasts made by scientists, of course, but they are very different from a scientific forecast’, says Armstrong.

Armstrong got the idea for the climate change wager from the late Julian Simon, an economist at the University of Maryland who was a friend of Armstrong’s. In 1980, Simon bet the population scaremonger Paul Ehrlich that natural resources were not scarce and shrinking, as Ehrlich and other Malthusian environmentalists claimed. Ehrlich accepted: he chose five metals (copper, chrome, nickel, tin and tungsten) and bet Simon that in 10 years’ time the price of these metals would have risen exponentially due to their continued depletion by human adventure. In fact, when 1990 arrived, the price of all of Ehrlich’s metals had fallen. Simon won the bet and Ehrlich handed him a cheque for $576.07. Armstrong expects to win his bet with Gore, too (that’s if Gore accepts; he hasn’t responded yet). But even if he were to lose, ‘at least I will have started a debate about forecasting’, he tells me.

Armstrong and his colleague Kesten Green, senior research fellow at Monash University in Australia and also an expert on forecasting, have been conducting research into the global-warming forecasts put out by Gore and organisations such as the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). And they discovered that most climate-change forecasters use bad methodology. They are set to present their findings at an International Symposium on Forecasting in New York on Wednesday. ‘What we have is climate forecasters effectively translating their own opinions into maths’, says Armstrong. ‘Their claims are not built on clear and thorough scientific forecasts but on their own outlooks.’ In Global Warming: Forecasts by Scientists versus Scientific Forecasts – the paper they are presenting at the symposium, which spiked has seen – Armstrong and Green point out that the IPCC’s Working Group One Report predicted ‘dramatic and harmful increases in average world temperatures over the next 92 years’, and they ask: ‘Are these forecasts a good basis for developing public policy?’ The answer provided in their paper is an emphatic ‘no’ (3).

Armstrong and Green – whom I’m sure won’t mind being referred to as forecasting geeks – argue that those who predict sweeping changes in the climate break many of the golden rules of forecasting, as laid out in the 2001 book The Principles of Forecasting. In their paper, they assessed ‘the extent to which long-term forecasts of global average temperatures have been derived using evidence-based forecasting methods’. They surveyed 51 scientists and others involved in making global-warming predictions, asking them to provide scientific articles that contained credible forecasts to underpin their view that temperature will rise rapidly. Most of those surveyed – 30 out of 51 – cited the IPCC Report as the best forecasting source. Yet according to Armstrong and Green, the forecasts in the IPCC Report are not the outcome of scientific forecasting procedures – rather the Report presents ‘the opinions of scientists transformed by mathematics and obscured by complex writing’ (4). Indeed, in their ‘forecasting audit’ of the IPPC Report, Armstrong and Green found that it violated 72 of the principles of forecasting.

Such as? ‘Well, some of the principles of forecasting can appear counterintuitive, so bear with me’, says Armstrong. ‘One of the principles is that agreement amongst experts is actually not a very good measure of accuracy. This is especially true if experts are working closely together, and towards a certain goal, as they do in the IPCC. Such an atmosphere does not tend to generate reliable or accurate forecasts. Another principle of forecasting is that when there is uncertainty, your forecasts should be conservative, you should hedge your bets a little bit. The IPCC and others do exactly the opposite: despite their uncertainty, the fact that they don’t know for certain what will happen, they are radical in their predictions of warming and destruction and so on.’

The IPCC Report violated these two principles of forecasting, claims Armstrong, and 70 more. As an example of why forecasting needs to be done properly, in their paper for the symposium he and Green point to various headlines that have appeared in the New York Times over the past 80 years. On 18 September 1924: ‘MacMillan Reports Signs of New Ice Age.’ On 27 March 1933: ‘America in Longest Warm Spell Since 1776.’ On 21 May 1974: ‘Scientists Ponder Why World’s Climate is Changing: A Major Cooling Widely Considered to be Inevitable.’ (5) ‘Those forecasts were made with a high degree of confidence, too’, he says. ‘Where are they now? It is very important that forecasts are built on proper forecasting principles, and that uncertain forecasts are treated as such.’

Armstrong and Green may have a point about the IPPC Report consisting more of scientists’ opinions rather than scientifically validated forecasts of temperature change. And it will be interesting to see if Gore accepts their bet. But I can’t help wondering if one of the main problems with the debate about climate change today is precisely the focus on forecasting, whether it is the allegedly wild forecasting contained in the IPCC Report or the more principled forecasting proposed by Armstrong and Green.

To debate the future on the basis of scientific forecasts about temperature is to denigrate human activity and impact. Humans don’t, or at least shouldn’t, sit around waiting for the inevitable to occur; we are capable of shaping our world and of addressing and solving problems as they arise. The Forecast View of History – which takes climatic developments of the past and measures them against the present, in order to make predictions about the future – tends to be fatalistic, viewing humans as objects of history rather than as creators of change. Perhaps we should spend less time forecasting what will (allegedly) happen, like modern-day tealeaf-readers, and more time making things happen in the way we want and need them to. I would put my money on human ingenuity over scary weather forecasts any day of the week.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:25 
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vistaed wrote:
Their work is funded, in sometimes convoluted means, by the oil lobby. Now, do you really trust what they have to say?

why should we trust them any less than people who rely on green/government funding and therefore must conform to that agenda or have their funding cut off? Seems to me that there's far more cash available at the moment for anyone who wants to tell us that we're all going to die horribly due to flood/fire/famine caused by 'catastrophic' climate change (note the convenient change of name as it's a bit cold to call it global warming at the moment) so why would the so-called researchers tell us anything different?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:29 
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vistaed wrote:
Ohh, regarding the initial post and the channel 4 programme. I do believe that the scientists the film maker brought together are not what you would call impartial. Their work is funded, in sometimes convoluted means, by the oil lobby. Now, do you really trust what they have to say?


I just noticed that statement in bold since it has been replied to.

I think it's extremely likely to be libellous - unless you have specific evidence?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:20 
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ummm...

I include below some references regarding my statement regarding funding by the oil lobby.

But also ask:
What has the green movement got to gain?
What has the oil lobby got to gain?
And who really has the greatest personal vested interest in winning this argument?

And before it is pointed out, I know this information is one sided, I'm just exploring one side of issue; I will leave up to others to provide evidence for the counter-argument.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/bush/story/0, ... 50,00.html

http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/6-8-2005-71284.asp

http://www.davidsuzuki.org/Climate_Chan ... eptics.asp

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:50 
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vistaed wrote:
What has the green movement got to gain?

power, control, money... Have you noticed just how much money Al Gore is making for "spreading the word" - and that's just appearance fees, never mind the companies he's setup to profit from his agenda.

vistaed wrote:
What has the oil lobby got to gain?

money presumably... (terrible, evil capitalists that they are)

vistaed wrote:
And who really has the greatest personal vested interest in winning this argument?

the greens for it is they who want to change the status quo, destroy capitalism and, at their most extreme, exterminate us all.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:52 
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vistaed wrote:
And who really has the greatest personal vested interest in winning this argument?


Every living being on the planet I would have thought.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:56 
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vistaed wrote:
And who really has the greatest personal vested interest in winning this argument?



(taken from numberwatch, taken from Tyndall)
Quote:
Working Paper 58

The Social Simulation of the Public Perception of Weather Events and their Effect upon the Development of Belief in Anthropogenic Climate Change Dennis Bray and Simon Shackley, (September 2004. Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research).



Some pertinent extracts, my italics:

To endorse policy change people must ‘believe’ that global warming will become a reality some time in the future: (their quote marks)

Only the experience of positive temperature anomalies will be registered as indication of change if the issue is framed as global warming.
Both positive and negative temperature anomalies will be registered in experience as indication of change if the issue is framed as climate change.
We propose that in those countries where climate change has become the predominant popular term for the phenomenon, unseasonably cold temperatures, for example, are also interpreted to reflect climate change/global warming.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:59 
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johnsher wrote:
vistaed wrote:
What has the green movement got to gain?

power, control, money... Have you noticed just how much money Al Gore is making for "spreading the word" - and that's just appearance fees, never mind the companies he's setup to profit from his agenda.

Well how else is he going to afford the 221,000kwh of electricity (alone) he uses every year? - that works out to be an average 25kW :shock:

johnsher wrote:
vistaed wrote:
And who really has the greatest personal vested interest in winning this argument?

the greens for it is they who want to change the status quo, destroy capitalism and, at their most extreme, exterminate us all.

Not as far out as you may think. This is the only real way to substantially reduce CO emissions.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 13:16 
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smeggy wrote:
Not as far out as you may think. This is the only real way to substantially reduce human CO emissions.


Edited for accuracy, we must remember that we only produce a small part of CO2 compared with nature. (3% IIRC)

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