Safe Speed Forums

Does anyone know the correct protocol to adopt in the following situation - an emergency vehicle comes up behind, blue lights flashing, siren wailing on a busy single carriageway bendy road with double white lines, at night?
Do you stop immediately?
Do you slow down?
Do you speed up?
Do you carry on until you can find a safe place to pull over?

Does anyone know if emergency vehicle drivers are trained to understand that motorists may panic when placed in such intimidating situations?

Depends on which emergency service,

Fire or Ambulance, I would speed upto to a safe speed to clear the double whites and indicate left and ease off at the next section of road with good sightlines for the Emg Servs to overtake.

If it was the police I would continue at the speed limit or appropriate speed below it, I would not risk anything that may bring a prosecution.

Similarly, if stopped at red lights, I would probably cross the line for Amb or FS (provided no cams), but not the Police unless he gets out and directs me to proceed across the line, by the hand signals shown in the Highway Code.

I feel I would take the points and fine to aid the FS or Amb' Serv. as most of their calls have real lifesaving potential, I'll not risk points for a copper to catch a shoplifter, or get his takeaway to the station while still hot.

Cynical me? Never!

fatboytim

erm, do whatever is safe to minimise the holdup you cause.

The worst thing people seem to do is stop somewhere the EV cannot get past or stop in a position that means other vehicles behind you cannot get out of the way. The other side of that is not to let the vehicle in front become an obstruction to you getting out of the way

In the case you describe, i.e. busy road, I would suspect there would be vehicles behind and between you and the EV when you first become aware of it so you should have a little time to plan while they get out of the way.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

This is a question to the forum rather than fatboytim specifically...

What has this caused this negative way of thinking towards the police, by law abiding citzens- i think its fairly widespread? The police offer an essential service to us afterall, just as fire and ambulance services do.

Has this feeling got worse in recent years?


Now this really does concern me: does this attitude toward police extend to matters outside of motoring? - this is a big worry.

I'd go with panic!

Ignore the white lines, emergency vehicles are probably exempt from these and similar laws. Police are exempt from laws even when they're just getting their lunch.

But I think I mostly agree with fatboytim. Do whatever is best to let them get on their way, it really depends on teh situation, but if it's the police then make sure you don't break any laws just in case they get their call cancelled and decide to do you instead.

Traffic lights with cameras... I do so hope I'm never in that situation. If it's not the police wanting to get past I'd probably point at the camera then gesture then to get as close as possible so as to cover up my numberplate as I went forward.
Hopefully I would have seen them coming and managed to get into reverse quickly though.

If it was a police car I don't think I'd go past the line, just put my reversing lights on and hope then understood that I'd go backwards to let them past.

The police don't seem to be very nice people. One appeared to race me off the lights, and got up to probably around 40mph before having to slow down for one of THEIR cameras!
Another didn't like me overtaking them at exactly 70mph so decided to tailgate me to try and push me into going faster. Why are they using encrypted radios now? What do they have to hide? Why do they have spy cameras up all over the town?

The police enforce the law. The law is stupid. Therefore the police enforce stupidity upon us.

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Andrew.

The official line from the ambulance service after a case last year where someone got fined for going through a red light to make way for an ambulance was not do do anything illegal.

Given a clear road you can usually outpace an ambulance or fire engine but don't overdo it so you miss an opportunity to let them past.

I echo "do minimal imposition to progress". If I was the only one, and it was gaining on me, and I was going as fast as I felt comfortable, I'd look for an "off" - a driveway, a field, a small turning...

Depends on the road condition and we would not expect you to get yourself into any danger to yourself. We can see the road condition you are facing anyway.

Look ahead for safest point to pull over to allow a safe overtake if possible.

Do not slow down unduly and hold us up .. but do not speed up uduly either. We know it is daunting and we are also looking ahead as well to make sure we can pass you safely and considerately. That was the Hendon method by the way and we train our RPU officers in this patch to that standard anyway. I cannot comment on other policies - but will assume them to be likewise

Try not to panic. I think the instinctive reaction is one of but most of us are aware that other motorists are not coming across us on a shout 24/7 despite those stats reporting carnage and disasters as a constant



We point this out to all trainees and we do warn and try to get any red mist on their part firmly under control and self-discipline. Should they have any incidents or problems then we have a full de-briefing and investigation with a view to correct and refine procedures.

As far as the red lights dilemma is concerned .. we will sometimes use the opposite carriageway if safe and if we are escorting an ambulance - say - we then position the police car to stop all traffic to clear the way for the ambulance at the junction. Any photo should include the emergency vehicles and admin staff then deal accordingly But do not cross on red setting because we are there. By all means inch forwards to create a space if safe and legal to do so - but do not endanger your life. The crew in that emergency should be able to plan ahead for a safe enough crossing with full caution. You see - we can only go through a red light if two conditions are satisfied

1. We have to be on a true emergency call and

2. We can only proceed through those red lights if it is safe to do so and does not inconvenience or endanger other road users.

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

This reminds me - about a year ago I had failed to spot a policeman "on a mission" on blues get up behind me on a windy country lane. "It all happend so suddenly" <NOT>!

I came upon a broken-down car, and gently braked to time my passing of the car in a gap in the traffic coming toward me without having to stop. I glanced in my mirror about a secondbefore committing to the overtake of the stationary car to see the white escort fairly close. In the instant I had to decide, I actually didn't panic. I realised that, because of my timing, I'd actually left it nice and comfy, and realised in the two or so tenths of a second to make a decision that if plod was on the ball, he'd be able to continue with his accelerate - which he was doing anticipating followiing me through - without a problem, so I chinked left and braked and on he went - all totally safe as he knew I'd made eye contact with him. He had to yank right a bit more sharpish than he'd originally planned, but I felt totally reassured. If I'd seen him beforehand (and the road is quite windy, it is possible I truly could not have by perhaps more than two to three seconds before I did, I doubt I could have done anything more to help him than I did. Certainly if I'd sped up to help him out I may well have come upon the broken-down too suddenly for comfort. I did have to wait a few more seconds for a couple of cars to go by the other way - but no matter of course. I then witnessed some masterful roadcraft from the Escort (from a distance of course - and without in any way playing catch-up

Had the car coming toward me that I'd intended to beat been a second or so more than he was closer to us, I'd have gone through and blasted headlights at him - hanging over to the right a bit more to "clear the way" for the copper (it is instinct to brake when someone is belting up the centre at you with headlights on) - and then chinked left. I am confident that the copper would have read that body language right too - it beats indicators hands down when the driver is telegraphing his intentions.

Thanks for all the illuminating replies, particularly:

"Look ahead for safest point to pull over to allow a safe overtake if possible."

I only asked because I spotted an emergency vehicle with lights flashing coming up fast behind me. As I waited for a suitable spot for it to overtake, it started up its siren. It might have done that in case I had not noticed those blue flashing lights; or because it was getting impatient. Panicking slightly, I pulled into what I thought was an opening but which turned out to be just a bare patch on the raised verge. I could have badly damaged the car. The emergency vehicle then overtook - it was a police car.

like said, I'll do whatever I can for ambulances/fire engines (without endangering myself to collision or penalties) Often just keeping space between me & the next car/stop line at the lights can let me do this, and as I drive a tall vehicle cars that I'm blinding to the emergency vehicle have to be considered too.

police, yeah they get simular "respect" but they also fall into that "special hazards & headaches of driving" catagory that you treat with severe caution purely because you have to rather than have any actual respect for, along with kamikaze cyclists, daydreaming pedestrians, tank commander bus drivers, nascar black cabs, motoGP stars on 50cc hondas, revenue toll camers, stazi parking attendants.

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Fear is a weapon of mass distraction

What a fatuous thing to say. When we're having to get out of the way of an emergency vehicle we have no idea of the circumstances of the call out. Neither you nor I are in a position to abitrate on an incidents seriousness.

Just imagine how you might feel if such a display of self-righteousness by someone else led to delaying a police vehicle attending an incident where you'd dialled 999?

Barkstar

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The difference between intelligence and stupidity is that intelligence has limits.

Whilst in principle I agree fully with Barkstar, insofar as my road movements/attitude does not differ PER SE between the different forces, it does differ depending on the size/speed/capability of the emergency vehicle. A laden water tender may need more of a run to do an overtake amd speeding up on a windy road if you know there's a pull-in ahead that you can reach before he has caught you up may well be a better option than pulling to the side of a narrow road, even if visibility isn't too bad.
One of many strange revelations amazed me in some recent vomit fodder from DfT I've just been reading (report on traffic calming - http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tpm/ltn ... rafficcalm ) - on page 12:my bold.

The police, unfortunately, have brought it upon themselves to an extent. We've all seen the news stories. And I have personally witnessed blatant abuse of blue lights on several occasions. In both cases it's always police vehicles and never fire or ambulance.

I'm sure 90%+ of police officers are well-intentioned, but some of the others would seem to abuse their authority regularly. They spoil it for everyone else, and introduce an element of doubt into people's minds whenever they see a police vehicle. (Of course the camera debacle hasn't helped...most people still think the loathsome devices are administered by the police, which isn't surprising given that the NIPs still use constabulary letterheads.)

Trust has to be earned.

Occasionally one finds a rotten apple in a barrel. I suggest that those who feel the need to treat the whole barrel in the same way think again. We still need apples.

I've not been dragged thru the courts and found Not Guilty on 3 occasions (with the non claimable loss of earnings amounting to £'000's) because of informantion provide by the Fire or Ambulance service. I have suffered at the hands over 'overzealous' police officers including upheld IPCC complaints.

I have never seen or read of the FS or AS vehicles abusing their dispensations to go the chippy and get the food back to the station whilst hot!.

The Fire and Ambulance personel don't have there authority to direct me thru a traffic sign against it's requirements, one of the cops in the car could get out and direct the traffic and then jump back in when the driver is thru the blockage, but they'd rather intimidate with blues and 2's.

FS and AS callouts have real lifesaving potential (hoaxes aside), the percentage of police blues and two's that have such potential are much much less. Thats why I'll use my judgement of the situation, I have no legal duty to do anything other than obey the law, no law gives me exemption therefore I'll play it as I see it.

I am not prepared to risk MY licence so the police can catch a smackhead shoplifter, stop 2 pissheads fighting in the pub, or get their dinner while it's hot.

Fatuous No!
Cynical Perhaps!

Don't forget the Police kill more innocent members of the public, than the public kill police officers, so I may be saving a life, if we want to be 'arsey'

fatboytim

Let's just hope you're cynicism doesn't cost someone else dear.



Not only was I not being 'arsey' but since you have no idea what the cop is heading towards you might be doing just the opposite.



I think you've got a touch of the Kenneth Williams - "Infamy infamy they've all got it in for me!"

Barkstar

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The difference between intelligence and stupidity is that intelligence has limits.

I have been prosecuted for getting out of the way for a police car, it took an independant vehicle and crash investigator's report, to prove my innocence and halt the prosecution.

I'm sorry but I've learnt by experience, they started on me, I'll not make the same mistake again.

fatboytim

The investigator was 'Mr Norman Williamson I.Eng MITAI MIRTE MSOE MIAEA MIDiag.E MFIEA MIMI'

A great pity you were so panicked that you could not register the reg number.


We do not want or expect people to damage their vehicles or get into bother because we are there .. with blues and twos.

I am more than painfully aware that some officers "let us down badly" in some instances. I can only stress these are isolated cases and we take note of all complaints .. even if you get no actual feed back over that.

I stress .. most rank and file of all police forces out there try to deliver the services as required. We have soem red tape issues to resolve.. but we all are trying very hard to do what our public require us to do.

I cannot really say fairer than that and I appreciate there are some issues to re-address here,

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

I suppose that different areas and circumstances affect our judgements on this.
We have Mountain Rescue, Police, Fire, Ambulance, and because we are a rural location, and some facilities are some distance away, we also have other emrgency vehicles such as a crash rescue vehicle in Kendal, which attends RTA's and does not look like a regular fire engine.

We also have a lot of narrow roads, with high lumpy walls, and bends, so here in Cumbria you have to be creative!

Another problem is the topography of our area might well mean the driver in front has not seen the emergency vehicle which YOU can see in your mirros, or might be admiring the scenery instead.
MORE creativity - you have to flash your lights, and/or sound your horn to get them to look behind, in a manner where they wont panic and pull up in an inappropriate place.
If on a narrow road such as the Langdale Valley, I tend to put hazards on, headlights on, and drive hell for leather (using COAST) to a place where I can pull off the road to allow a pass, or if nothing is coming the other way, stop in a place where there is sufficient view ahead to allow a pass.

Finally, last week on our estate, I was second car approaching a T-junction, with one car waiting to enter the road from which we were intending to exit left.
An ambulance appeared behind us, with blues on. What to do, where to go? I sounded my horn to attract the driver in front's attention to the situation behind, the waiting driver pulled past the junction to clear the exit, car one rounded the corner, since he was too close to allow a pass on the junction, and I swung over to the left pavement and put two wheel on it.
A quick well choreographed manouvre, because nobody panicked, and everyone summed up the potential difficulty, and took imediate steps to minimise the obstruction.
If only ALL drivers displayed the quick wittedness instead of the absolutely stupid manouvres I have seen on the A591, where there is far less to go wrong! Better driving instruction should include coping with emergency vehicles if we ever get it!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!