Safe Speed Forums

So, after driving for an incident-free 8 years, I suppose the law of averages said that it was bound to happen sooner or later.

Picture the scene -- driving along the motorway, approaching a junction (A1M J4 in this case). I'm in lane 1 doing about 65 mph, I'm not leaving at the junction. As the slip road approaches, all the other traffic in lane 1 ahead of me peels off; I carry on going.

Then, just as I start to pass the tiger tails I see a blur out of the corner of my right eye, and a 4x4 barrels across right in front of me to try and make it onto the slip road. I slam my brakes on, but the other driver is also braking because she's trying to get to the slip road; her brakes work better than mine and it ends with the sickening crunch.

When we collided, I must have been down to about 50 mph, she was probably down to about 40, and fortunately we were both able to control our vehicles and get to the hard shoulder.

I called the police because she was undoubtedly to blame and I wanted to see her charged with dangerous driving, or at the very least get a statement for my insurance saying that it was her fault. But 30 minutes later, no sign of the police, a Highways Agency vehicle turns up. The HATO guys were polite and friendly, and informed us that since no-one was injured the police wouldn't bother to show up.

I couldn't believe this -- surely the police can't just ignore a 999 call because they can't be bothered with it? If it's policy not to attend non-injury accidents, why didn't they tell me this on the phone, rather than saying "we'll be there as soon as possible" and then never bothering to show up?

So anyway, I ended up with the front of my car mashed in, and she ended up with a minor dent on her bumper.

I suppose my real question from all this is, to you advanced drivers, is this something that I should have been able to anticipate and avoid? At the time I'd been concentrating on the traffic leaving the motorway to ensure that I had a safe distance in front of me, and I'd been keeping an eye on lane 2, where I didn't see any traffic. I guess she must have been in lane 3 and cut straight across, otherwise I surely would have seen her.

Any tips on observation and anticipation for this sort of situation?

My word, what a so-and-so.

Do you think she didn't see you or thought (wrongly) she could pass you before going off? Or was she actually intending to come off behind you but you inadvertently thwearted that plan by braking?

Either way, you ask what other tips...

At junctions, on or off, I always endeavour to pass them with an escape lane. Not always possible, but in this case...

1) Could you have taken off at the juhnction with her either instead of or as well as braking, if necessary making it all the way to the shoulder to give her room?

2) Having seen her come across, was lane 2 clear and could you have pulled out to avoid a collision?

Both options are not instinct I know, but these would have been my two optional escape lanes for any unexpected activity. I would have done my best to know what the state of traffic was in those two places and been reassured if either one was clear to hopefully deal with such an assault as you were faced with.

Incidentally, several months ago I made an error of judgement - I posted on here I think - when I inadvertently carved across someone's bows. In that case I think I was an assailant on someone who had done a similar thing about a second before hand but behind me and was gunning it up the exit ramp. Thankfully this gross error on my part resulted in just a headlight flash, a bit of braking by the Audi and an acknowledgement by me of my terrible piece of judgement.

I hope that the miscreant in this case does not make it awkward on the insurance front and I'm glad nobody was hurt.

I hope the HATOS did make a report for your insurance claim? Yep .. we do have to draw lines on resources... especially if this is "exchange details" as no one injured. Some folk though know "how to play the game" - I will not say how .. but you can perhaps guess .. and nope.. cannot say I blame them for doing so either

She obviously did not plan ahead. If you know you need the next exit .. then L3 is not the right place to be on approach and if you are in the wrong lane and would cut up another .. then the simple solution is to continue to the next exit and loop back.

Did she admit liability?

Is it possible to get a photo of the scene from any nearby A road bridge over this motorway - or perhaps you could return with a passenger who can photograph as you proceed. If she disputes .. this can help back you up later in court if you refute the normal 50:50 they try on if the other party refuses to admit liability.

I do not think from what you say here that you could have avoided her from a cut from L3 to L1 at the last minute like that.

I think perhaps you should have stressed she moved from L3 to L1 with blatant disregard for any other road user. I think you should write to the CC and your MP expressing your concerns over this. Sounds to me as if she should be on a DIS course - probably would have been had a routine patrol seen it .

Germany apparently does use CCTV footage to prosecute that sort of driving - especially on the derestricted stretches.

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Orange,

A couple of questions...

- How far away was she when you first spotted her?

- If you hadn't braked, would she have passed behind you do you think? (It certainly sounds likely from your description).

- Was she committed to crossing a solid bordered 'tiger tail' arrangement illegally?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

She was definitely planning to pass me, because I didn't start braking until she was in front of me. Perhaps I didn't explain it very well, this is an approximation of how it was when I first spotted her and started to brake (no accuracy guarantee due to it all happening so fast!)



and this is where we collided:





Thanks for those ideas -- lane 2 might well have worked as an escape plan, the problem was it had been a few seconds since I'd checked my right mirror so I wasn't confident that lane 2 was still empty. When I realised I was going to hit her, I did briefly think about swerving round but I was afraid I might go into a spin and end up worse off, because there wasn't much space between us to do a gentle steer round.



Well, they didn't witness the incident so all they did was give us a form to fill in with our names and addresses.



Oh, I completely understand that -- but why not just tell me up front on the phone, "sorry, we're not going to attend"? As it was we stood there and waited for 30 minutes after being told that someone would be attending.



Hehe, well afterwards I did think that perhaps I should have played a confused shocked "I don't know if anyone's injured, but there's a woman and child in the other car and it looks damaged"-type line, maybe then someone would have come



Well, she refused to (she said the insurance company tells you not to, which is fair enough) but she had a very guilty face.
Quite frankly, considering that when I talked to her she didn't know what road we were on, what junction we were at or whether we were going northbound or southbound, I'm surprised she had enough brainpower to be able to start a car in the first place.



Is it possible for these things to come to court? I thought the insurance companies just sorted it out amongst themselves, and if they decide to settle 50:50 then it's tough and that's it.



I don't think I described it very well, the diagram above shows where she was when I spotted her.



I'm pretty sure that she was, she was never going to make it onto the sliproad without crossing that area.

If this is accurate, then it seems quite clear that the 4x4 is to blame, and the HATO's should be able to back this up.
Is this junction monitored on CCTV? If after the exchange of details, she then exited up the slip road, or if she admitted that this was her intent, then I dont see that there is ANYTHING you could have done, as to veer left to avoid her could have compounded the event should you have encountered anything to your left.

Edited to add You beat me to the post!!

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You were right - and brave - to accept the colision rather than swerve into a lane that might have been occupied which potentially could have placed you en pris at the front/cause of something much more serious.

What surprises me, given that you are evidently an observant and considerate driver given your 8-year blemish-free performance is that this assailant was ialongside/ in front of you before you saw her. Had you spied her coming up fast before hand, you almost certainly would have made yourself aware of left/right alternatives in case of such an imbecillic move.

Maybe she had some help? I have seen a well known snooker player who used to have somebody drive his car from the pavement parking place, before he got in to drive it away!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Well yes, this is what got me wondering and partly why I posted; I feel like I should have spotted her earlier and been able to take avoiding action.

I think what happened was that she must have been travelling in lane 3 at roughly the same speed as me (slightly faster, probably) -- so her sudden movement was to the left (rather than being a big object approaching fast from behind). I was probably looking in the other direction at the time, when perhaps I could have spotted her earlier.

My theory as to the cause of the accident is that she was using her SatNav (which afterwards I could see was switched on inside her car). Just before this junction the road goes through the Hatfield Tunnel where there's no GPS signal. I reckon that after she exited the tunnel, her sat nav took a few seconds to reconnect, then realised where it was and told her to take the exit but it was too late. If the tunnel wasn't there it would probably have given her a 1/2 mile warning or something and she might not have made such a stupid move.

How very likely. I guess these sorts of junctions are going to have more of this with aftermarket stanavs that dfon't know how to do dead reckoning during dead zones.

It looks like you made all the right decisions. I don't think the sliproad would have been a good move because in the early stages it was looking like braking would be sufficient. In any case you might have tangled someone else up in the incident.

I only have one suggestion.



Had you been in L3 doing 85 it wouldn't have happened.

Yes - I almost posted a similar suggestion to Homer's but thought it might have read far too twee. As I said originally, I like to keep options open past a junction. Keeping lateral distance from activity up is another key winner. An otherwise empty outside lane (with eyes left) at a speed moderately in excess of traffic on the inside is far preferable to being in the mele of lane 1 with an exit slip that you don't want to take.

Hehe, I did think that as well. I guess I'm starting to see why some people deliberately choose to be middle lane hogs, because "lane 1 is too scary with people leaving and joining all the time, and lane 3 is too fast with people tailgating each other, so I'll just sit in lane 2." Might have to join them!

Staying out of 'danger zones' is pretty much a primary objective of good driving. It's hard to see how this would normally be applied to someone cruising between 55mph and 65mph in L1 when they arrive at an off-slip intending to continue on the motorway.

On the other hand, perhaps it's a good reason to 'attack' the motorway from a 'different perspective' - and I guess it's one of the reasons that you'll often find me in L3.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I've had a similar experience to Orange whilst in the car on the M5, I was in L2 and a BMW passed me, carved across in front of me and braked all in one swift movement. We didn't collide but it was mighty close. The driver had seen a police car parked on the hard shoulder tending a broken down vehicle just ahead of the off slip, and panic braked to save her licence (I presume) but nearly lost her life in the process.
And having had two near misses, albeit on the bike, whilst passing motorway slip roads I still have first, second and third thoughts about how to approach the situation. We can't all move to L3 if the motorway is even moderately busy, moving into L2 will sometimes confuse drivers behind you of they can't see why you've done it and you get tailgated or flashed. So you have to look after yourself and accomodate the morons who don't understand why you are doing what you are doing

I guess you can't really win in this situation. Sure, you could pull out into L2 for every junction but then people would accuse you of being a middle lane hog, and the extra lane changes would surely lead to some additional risk.

Or, you could just drive faster such that you were always overtaking people, but as petrol is so expensive these days I like to maintain the most efficient speed for the car when doing my daily commute. Perhaps driving at 80 and aiming to be in L3 when passing junctions is in fact the safest option.

I really wouldn't "react" to this accident by changing your normal driving speed and lane choice. However, I would add this to the list of possibilities and plan escape lane(s).

I wonder if my near nonexistent concern during driving for economy makes me safer than one with an inward eye on economical speed of travel?

The drivers that carry out this kind of stunt are usually -
1. Very familiar with the road in question
2. In a hurry
3. More important than anyone else

Unfortunatly the Hatfield tunnel (N and S carriageways both have junctions at each end) seem to bring out the worst in drivers.

Thought it was time for an update. Although she as good as admitted fault at the roadside, surprise surprise her insurance claim states that she was leaving the motorway safely from L1 and that I crashed into her from behind.

I refused the 50:50 that my insurance company offered me, so the claim is still with them being 'processed'. However, since no witnesses stopped I can't see how it can end in any way other than a 50:50 settlement since it's just my word against hers.

Also, since the incident two interesting tidbits:
* A colleague at work spotted the same woman driving along the same stretch of road, about a month after the crash (we knew it was her because it's a very distinctive American-import vehicle, and the left wing mirror was still smashed from where she hit a signpost in our accident). This time she was in L1 well in advance of the junction, but very closely tailgating a poor Micra in the process. Looks like she's learnt one lesson, but there'll probably be more to come...
* A couple of weeks ago I drove past another accident at the same spot, looked like a similar thing had happened, though this time it involved a Peugot 206 rather than a 4x4. Seems like SatNav + idiocy = accidents. But don't worry, I'm sure they'll be along with a speed camera soon to make the road safe.

Just shows how deep-seated stupidity can be. I hope you win.

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