Safe Speed Forums

Paul not sure if this is the right place to post, please move if appropriate.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/5380018.stm

theres also a video link on the bbc news wales page.

My case was dropped in Dec'05, so I finally got my evidence heard in court.

fatboytim,

From: Dr L
Sent: 26 September
To: 'heledd.parry@tourism.wales.gov.uk'
Cc: 'press@tourism.wales.gov.uk'; 'jonesdi@parliament.uk'
Subject: How many more speeding cases do you want in North Wales.

Heledd Parry, Wales Tourist Board, Brunel House
2 Fitzalan Road, Cardiff CF24 0UY
Tel: 029 2049 9909 , Fax: 029 2048 5031
Email heledd.parry@tourism.wales.gov.uk

cc: David Jones MP (Con, Clwyd West)
House of Commons, London SW1A 0AA
Tel: 020 7219 8070
Email jonesdi@parliament.uk

Heledd

I wondered how much more bad news you would like to see about the excessive use of speed cameras in North Wales from your n***y Mr Brunstrom, so as to completely discourage any holiday makers, or anyone else, from coming to Wales, such as shown at;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/5380018.stm

Thanks Dr.L,
The site is actually the A541 Westminster Bridge, Gwersyllt, Wrexham, so I think it's Ian Lucas (Lab) MP Wrexham.
But contacting his neighbouring Conservative MP was probably even better in the embarassment stakes.
I tried to inform Ian Lucas (Camera supporter) some months ago of the issues, but he failed to return my contact.

With a bit of luck it might make the Sundays papers.

fatboytim

Excellent! Is it their mistake that they are saying you were found NG, if the case was dropped? It foxed me, because a NG verdict would have automatically cast doubt on the previous convictions.

Yes you are correct my case was Dismissed after a Notice of Discontinuance.
I've known of this case for a few weeks now, but have kept quiet, as I didn't want to alert the scammers to my involvement.
THEY KNOW NOW!
fatboytim

Have responded as follows;

From: Dr L
Sent: 26 September 2006
To: 'lucasi@parliament.uk'
Cc: 'heledd.parry@tourism.wales.gov.uk'
Subject: FW: How many more speeding cases do you want in North Wales.

Ian Lucas MP (Labour, Wrexham)
House of Commons, London SW1A 0AA
Tel:020 7219 8346 Fax:020 7219 1948
lucasi@parliament.uk www.ianlucas.co.uk

Constituency Office, Vernon House,
41 Rhosddu Road, Wrexham LL11 2NS
Tel:01978 355743 Fax:01978 310051

I understand that the message below (see previous posting) would have more appropriate to send to yourself, rather than David Jones MP.

I am increasingly aware of friends and colleagues who are more and more reluctant to go to North Wales for a holiday, or any other reason. This is for fear of getting a speeding ticket for inadvertently exceeding a speed limit on unfamiliar and poorly signed roads while trying to drive as carefully and lawfully as they reasonably can.

What would seem to be your nutcase of a Chief Constable, Heir Adolph Brunstrom, would seem to be doing everything he possibly can with his speed cameras to wreck your tourist industry with no benefit to road safety.

See - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/5380018.stm

Regards, Dr L
-------------------------------------------------------
NB. do you know if Clive Burton the solicitor for this case ?

Dr L

NB. do you know if Clive Burton the solicitor for this case ?

Yes I do know, and yes it was (what a nice guy), I was a witness for the defence, showing my video & photos, of the site.
Dr Clark was the Laser expert (another nice guy).

If you or any of the members have local media contacts, please give them a heads up for Friday, as it's not just locals that get caught.

http://icnorthwales.icnetwork.co.uk/new ... _page.html
sorry don't know how to reduce or rename links.

IF we get a Not Guilty, this gentlemans claim on its own will be very substantial.

fatboytim

My battles won, but the War goes on.

Hi DrL,

new here, just received NIP for alleged speeding 2mph over allowed margin. Your comment about dissuading people to go to Wales is so true. Family and self have spent thousands of pounds holidaying and travelling to different places in Wales over last 30 years and new family members tend to do same.

Not going to Wales anymore and neither are family. So Wales loses thousands of £'s in future income from me for travelling allegedly, a couple of 100 yds over limit. A chat with a Police Officer and flashing warning signs would be a better deterrent than the cash making machines.

Regards

From: Dr L
Sent: 08 October 2006
To: 'heledd.parry@tourism.wales.gov.uk'
Cc: 'press@tourism.wales.gov.uk'; 'jonesdi@parliament.uk'; 'lucasi@parliament.uk'
Subject: RE: How many more speeding cases do you want in North Wales.

Heledd Parry, Wales Tourist Board, Brunel House
cc: David Jones MP (Con, Clwyd West)
cc: Ian Lucas MP (Labour, Wrexham)

Just thought you might be interested in the following case that has recently been brought to my attention.

“Hi, - just received NIP for alleged speeding 2mph over allowed margin. Your comment about dissuading people to go to Wales is so true. Family and self have spent thousands of pounds holidaying and travelling to different places in Wales over last 30 years and new family members tend to do same. - Not going to Wales anymore and neither are family. So Wales loses thousands of £'s in future income from me for travelling allegedly, a couple of 100 yards over limit. A chat with a Police Officer and flashing warning signs would be a better deterrent than the cash making machines.”

So it would seem that for the sake of persecuting yet another tourist for a moderate speed infraction to get a bit more revenue for your police, Wales will further lose out because of what would seem to be your idiot of a chief constable Burnstorm, who is doing untold damage to your tourist industry with no benefit to road safety.

What will it take to reign him in, or will you now have another multi £million television advertising campaign to repair the damage he is causing. Unfortunately you can claim what you want about the welcome in the hillside, but tourists now know that they are much more likely to get a speeding ticket when they return from their holiday. The sour taste of that will quickly eradicate any sweet memories from their holiday in Wales.

Regards

Dr L

Congrats on both cases.

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

From: Dr L
Sent: 08 October 2006
To: 'heledd.parry@tourism.wales.gov.uk'
Cc: 'press@tourism.wales.gov.uk'; 'jonesdi@parliament.uk'; 'lucasi@parliament.uk'
Subject: RE: How many more speeding cases do you want in North Wales.

To: Heledd Parry, Wales Tourist Board, Brunel House
cc: David Jones MP (Con, Clwyd West)
cc: Ian Lucas MP (Labour, Wrexham)

Following my previous email to you earlier today, may I now bring to your attention to the article in North Wales Daily Post, 29th September 2006, at;
http://icnorthwales.icnetwork.co.uk/new ... _page.html

May I suggest that you promptly and vigorously bring this article to the attention of your Chief Constable Brunstrom and, as necessary, force the information into him via any suitable aperture in his anatomy, as it would seem he is otherwise incapable of understanding the damage he is doing with his obsessive use of speed cameras to the tourist economy of Wales, while not achieving any improvement in road safety.

As the article says, “Now that the lie has been given to this lazy thinking, it is incumbent on the government (and Chief Constable Brunstrom) to act quickly to address the real cause of road accidents and deaths. Too much time and too many lives have been wasted and lost already because those entrusted with our safety insisted that they alone knew best - that they had a monopoly on wisdom. - Well they didn't. For all the speed cameras now littering the roads and criminalising all and sundry, 3,201 people were killed on Britain's roads last year - just 1% fewer than in 2004.”

Regards,

Dr L

Your reference to Richard Brainstorm (who, incidentally, is on record as saying you are a crackpot) prompted me to look at his website.

Any views - Paul Smith? - on this, especially the link to the French experience?

http://www.north-wales.police.uk/nwp/pu ... asp?CID=54

the main reason for the French experience has nothing to do with speed limits and everything to do with them cracking down on their passion for drink driving.

See http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=313665&f=10&h=0 for a recent N Wales sucess outcome.

That's twice the amount over the allowed margin that I got done for. (Hidden talivan, deserted road, Sunday lunchtime, Anglesey.)

My speedo doesn't overread, so if it said 36 mph, that's what I would have been doing.

I will think three times before risking another holiday in North Wales.

_________________
Brian

Is it possible to copy some information across, since I can't get access and didn’t want to register with yet another outfit.

copyright Richard C

"OK so it’s a bit of a ramble. It might appeal to those without attention deficit disorder.

So............last Christmas I was stopped in North West Wales in the works Mercedes Vito on way to see old dear.

Nasty little jumped up trafpol (the kind who lets the whole side down) who's whole car was concealed in specially-built trap on dual carriageway. Reported me for 91 mile/h. I was ready to accept 78-86 as I was overtaking safely an Irish 44 tonne meat artic racing for the port. After filling out a FPN he smiled at me, ripped it up and said "Its not a 'car derived van' is it ?" I agreed " It’s a dual purpose vehicle". " No such thing, It’s an LGV" insisted he. He said he was going to report me for a speed equivalent to 101 mile/h and it would have to go to court. He showed me his LTI 20-20 ' Dodgyscope', without video. (TI-2020 - a well known American piece of crap imported by one Frank Garett, millionaire, ex trafpol and defended by Home office even though it has been rejected in several US states and exposed as frequently inaccurate by Trevor McDonald on the BBC)

I told him he was wrong, the vehicle was a dual purpose vehicle and I'd see him in court.

Having successfully fought 10 FPNs ( some advising others ) and achieved 8 wins and a draw I have a clean licence and might have accepted the FPN.

Summonsed in June, 6 days before the 6 month time limit. PC had written in evidence that the vehicle was a 'Goods Van/Minibus' ( really, at the same time ?!) and that I had an 'anti-police attitude' A bit off the mark here - I'm not anti police per se but I was certainly anti that little tw@t and am generally rather negative about North Wales trafpol with their 'F*** you ! We Rule! we'll get you!' attitude (-as described to me by one Cheshire off duty bobby

So I pleaded not guilty.

Summonsed to appear for pre trial review. Wasted 4 hours waiting outside but educated various younger motoring miscreants with advice as to how to fight the system. Finally called in last where a pleasant and helpful clerk and pedantic pompous CPS lady sat. Spelled out why I was pleading not guilty. Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regs 1986 specified what was a Dual Purpose Vehicle. If necessary I would have to survey the vehicle and confirm that it fitted the regs. She suggested that perhaps it had been modified. I asked her did she mean before or after the alleged offence. She mumbled vaguely and withdrew the remark. The clerk agreed that it certainly seemed that it was a DP vehicle. I suggested that I might plead guilty to speeding over a 70 mile/h limit and that it should be treated as a FPN ( £60 + 3 points). "Oh no no no no no !" She claimed that the police would advise on this new vehicle classification issue. She then found a printout from DVLA that showed it was " a panel van" and that was the end of it. I pointed out that if this was evidence I had not received it in the summons bundle and I stated that 'panel van' was printed next to a heading 'taxation class' and that had no relevance to a C&U Act definition which surely took precedence in any matter that was in doubt. She asked for an adjournment to take advise from the police; I queried this stating that in my ignorance of the law I had thought it was the job of the police to report and that of CPS to prosecute if they considered that to be 'in the public interest' She snickered a bit and said in some cases it was up to the police. But no way was she going to accept my argument. I gave her vehicle specifications and measurements from makers specifications 'to assist the CPS and the Court' The clerk thanked me and asked me to fill in a means form and change my plea to guilty. I said I'd consider it.

I received 2 more forms advising me of adjournments requested by the CPS and finally one demanding I attend whilst I was out of the country despite having advised the court beforehand. I wrote back requesting evidence from prosecution under disclosure.

Clerk wrote back to say CPS were still of the mind that 60 was the limit for the Vito. And I had to attend another pre trial review.

So I went.

And walked into the Mags court bowing to the bench to ask the clerk to consider listing my case early as I had been there since 09:30 and had urgent business that afternoon. Well....solicitors do that ! She actually did so but not before I had heard 2 fascinating cases where the police had stopped 3 dubious types who happened to have wads of cash with them. And one was unemployed but had a VW Passat. " Much too luxurious a car for someone in that position " The cops wanted another 3 months to scrape up some sort of a case against them. Well nice people use credit cards don't they ?

And some young lad who had shagged his underage girl friend on several occasions. Oh!, now he's a sex offender being committed to Crown court so he can be labelled a paedophile and a beast for the rest of his life. To make us feel a bit more righteous about our lives ?

And some stupid old couple who had had some tiff, he'd beaten her up, she'd phoned the cops, they'd sent 2 armed response teams and a chopper, he'd been arrested, grilled and bailed to live in a Midlands address. However the police had written the bail address street correctly but at a town near Liverpool. Careless mistakes sometimes happen. When humans write things down. The mags and clerk could not get their heads round the fact that Mr Geriatric Wifebeater had been in breach of bail conditions by more than 100 miles for at least a couple of months and that was illegal. I mean people get sent down for less than that!. Despite the fact it was the systems fault. Duhhhh. So Mrs Beaten Wife got up and said she had no idea that reporting him to the police would result in all this and she can't sleep and she only wanted him to have medical help and now he’d had it could they let him come and live back at home? Mrs Ponderous the senior mag had to conflab with her bench mates for at least 10 minutes before she pompously announced that Mr Wifebeater was being remanded on bail pending reports and the only bail condition was that he had to report to the something clinic 'as directed'. He seemed stunned .... “Can I visit thuh weiff then ?" Durrrrrr. He wobbled off on his walking stick.

And finally I was asked to enter the court. I requested to sit at the spare desk so I could take notes. The clerk bade me stand while she asked my name, my address and my favourite colour. Little people like to insist on these trivial powers to make them feel a bit more important don't they.

And she read out the charge. I maintained my Not Guilty plea. She turned to the CPS who looked for once like a pleasant and practicable chap. He looked at his file. Probably for the first time. She stared me down reading out pointedly the number of times this case had been adjourned. I pleasantly pointed out that 3 had been at the behest of the PS and once had been down to the fact that the case had been listed for a date I had given as out of the country. The CPS chap said it seemed that the police had had to advise what was the weight of the lorry. I mentioned it was a Vito Dualiner and the weight was in the specifications that should have been filed by Ms Controlfreak. "Oh yes.... this seems very detailed....." CPS carried on…. "Err Weight was mentioned but this was not clarified.... Is the vehicle for dualpurposes ? I can't understand the police response....it seems that they were asked but don't seem to have properly replied....Hmmmnnnn!" I wrote all this down. Clerk turns on me. "So the question is not whether you were speeding but what the speed limit for the vehicle is ?" Me "yes that is so but the speed limit is certainly the substantive issue..." Clerk " And what is your basis for disputing the applicable speed limit ?" Me " My position remains as I gave the court in July namely that the vehicle speed limit is defined by the Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Act 1986 Section 13 a) and the vehicle itself meets the 4 criteria laid down in the 1984 RTA. And vehicles meeting these criteria in full are permitted to travel on DCs at up to 70 mile/h not 60". The clerk said " so can a new summons be issued if this is the case ?" CPS replied " A summons cannot be withdrawn after 6 months from the offence ( That I did not know ). So it can't be re-issued. I think our position is that it is a defective summons and we have no evidence with which to proceed " So the Clerk turns to me and says that the case will be dropped. I say " ....Tenjewberrymuds...! " and she says helpfully " I am obliged to tell you that you can submit a claim for costs - which I was already thinking about but I think that the cheque I receive may not be cashed but will stay in a glass picture frame until it fades"

So that’s it. I wrote all this because I am chuffed that I beat the system at last and thanks to the vindictive and arrogant nature of many of those attracted to this system they wasted shedloads of our money and will have to give some of it to me now instead of having £60 or even much more of my hardearned and taken a 25% bite out of my licence. I wrote this to share my experiences with others on the forums because people need encouragement to fight them. Especially when ACPO head Meredydd Hughes recent statement illegally attempts to intimidate those who do insist on their day(s) in court by suggesting the police will put a team together to rack up the costs tenfold and even if they get off they will be targetted by the police all the time. Real Nazi stuff eh ?.

And the licence stays clean."


Fatboytim

hi fatboytim
well done and congrats

regards goldy

_________________
Audere Est Facere.....To Dare Is To Do

Goldy it's not me I was just pasting it from pistonheads for the good Dr.L. It's Richard Cs' case. My case was at the same site as the article in the first post.
fatboytim

fatboytim, many thaks for the posting.

Read with great interest.

ADS !!, now what was I doing ??