Safe Speed Forums

No, it's in this years to do list.

We have a National Trust family ticket, so we go to Acorn Bank at Temple Sowerby on a regular basis.

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Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian

Letter in this week's New Civil Engineer magazine:

'What a briliant idea - anti speed camera groups organise a "drive sowly" protest. If they can be pursuaded to continue this protest all year round, the problem of speeding will be solved, we will not need cameras and everyone will be happy.
How about it guys?'

Has Mr Summerhill considered this solution?

More seriously - a second corespondent on the theme makes this point:

'If drivers feel a speed limit is unreasonable, they should be arguing to change the law, not challenging the means of enforcement... we should hold a reasoned debate on the subject and not pretend speeding is not really breaking the law.'

But the whole point is not to question the concept of speed limits per se, but to argue that, because of their nature as a line in the sand drawn in a grey area between "safe" and "unsafe" behaviour, it is unreasonable and counter-productive to enforce them in an automatic manner without regard to the circumstances.

Can you also not appreciate that it is possible to enforce a fundamentally reasonable law in an unreasonable manner?

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

The issue is not one of enforcement. It is about road safety. Elsewhere on this forum a Speed Camera Operator stated that his Idea of a good day is if no one was caught....
Intersting. I would have thought he should have said his idea of a good day would be no accidents....you see the two are not the same. Illegal speed is being pushed as the primary cause of serious road accidents, and it is not. And because of this road safety is suffering. It is possible that if no one ever broke the speed limit the death toll would still keep going up. Something is seriously wrong with the road safety message and we believe it is the reliance on speed limit enforcement.

This has lead to the following misunderstanding....

"Speeding" related accidents are rare. Any accident can be used to justify camera placement.

Now perhaps you know why we were protesting.

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Speed camera policy Kills

Hi Gizmo,

I'm not sure we'd be kidding many people if we tried to assert that this is not at all about enforcement. I agree that it's not about enforcement in the way that many may think it is, as it's certainly about the misplaced emphasis on enforcement when other aspects of road safety are being ignored.

The problem is, the powers-that-be will not entertain the idea of debating the issue. They're right, everyone else is wrong, and they're not going to be reasonable about it.
All we can do is chip, chip chip away at the edifice until it eventually collapses.

Cheers
Peter

If we just talk about enforcement we do not have much of an argument. The laws the law. The problem is the law does not reflect the reality of road safety. And speed limits, right or wrong have become "political" Getting sensible speed limits is important but cannot be achieved by law breaking.

We all have a slightly different view on the subject but mine is that the law is the law but speed enforcement by remote control, by what ever means does not in its self benefit road safety. It is a much more complex picture.

This is demonstrated by fact that average road speeds have come down but the death toll has gone up.

Lets face it.....if road deaths had come down by 50% across the country following the introduction of speed cameras we would not have much support would we? But the fact is they have gone up. That is where we prove our point.

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Speed camera policy Kills

Sorry if this is maybe in the wrong thread; I'm in a hurry.

National Speed Offence Database
"Deregulation of privileged information means you can now access your speeding offences on line."

Unsure whether real or not.

Try it and find out when you have a second, I can't be bothered just now

We alos have a National Trust Family ticket and go to Acorn Bank a lot.

We visit Fell Foot - our younger kids adore picnics down there.

We go to most of them. I can recomend both NT and Englsih Heritage for providing useful places of interest for a family to visit.

We also go to Eden Ostrich - and have season ticket for this as well.

Small world!

Look out for us - and say hi! You cannot possibly miss us - lots of children - wife with very strong Swiss accent and she is very attractive on the eye. Lively type. I am a lucky man. I chose my mate well.

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If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

The point I was making is that there is a good chance you and every one else pro-camera will be prosecuted for speeding even if you don't exceed a designated speed limit and when that happens you will be guilty until you prove yourself innocent - if you are even given the chance to prove anything at all that is.

Talk about intellectually stunted though, you can only be a member of the Scameratti to not see the dangers on this one, and it will get worse if ID card system is introduced - speed cameras are just the beginning. I suggest you open your eyes more to what is really happening.

Andy

Hi Gizmo,

This is what the authorities would be very comforted to hear, but in a democracy the law is the law if it is considered so by the majority of the people the law represents and as Paul rightly mentioned in a post earlier in this thread ALL of us exceed the speed limits at times, therefore break the law, so it can be concluded that speed cameras and the surrounding laws as it stands does not represent the public's view and simply represents the government forcing their will on the people - not very democratic.

Charter 88 are also very concerned about the state of our democracy but that's something else, it is certainly evident in road traffic law IMO.

Andy

There are several points raised here but this is not the tread to thrash them out.

There are many laws that are broken without a second thought. Think of copyright theft. Most of us have copied music or video at some time probably without thinking what we are doing is illegal. And yet it carries a maximum sentence of 10 years in jail....

An important thrust of Pauls work is that the focus on speed has been detrimental to road safety. In this way we cannot be critisised for supporting "speeding" as such. This is a VERY sensative subject.

If we just say that speeding is OK because most people do it there will always be a problem in an open discussion.

That's what I think anyway.

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Speed camera policy Kills

You are quite correct that this is not in itself a good reason to condemn the law but two fundamental questions to consider are:

Is the law proportionate and addresses the problem it proposes to address?
Is justice seen to be served correctly and fairly on those that commit the offence?

To both questions the answer where road traffic offences are concerned is a resounding no IMO.

So although you are right to say that we should not disobey our laws, neither should the government create laws solely to serve their own political ends with legislation that undermine our democratic and judicial pricipals.

Andy

I would agree with the previos two postings but would like to add:

All speed limits need reviewing! some up , some down.

There should be a concerted effort to speed up trunk roads in and out of towns and cities by road design. The opposite is happening. trunk roads are being narrowed and cameras installed fourcing drivers to ratrun through our residential streets.

Speed cameras should be placed where the accident rate is too high FOR THE NUMBER OF VEHICLES and only where speed was realy the issue and only after road design and speed activated signs have not worked.

Technology should be used much more on our motorways to set veriable speed limits.

Pedestrians and cyclists need to be re-educated. It is years since the state rand a proper road safty campaign to geet them on thier appropriate lanes and pavements. (and stop for traffic lights, not run across trunk roads)

So when is the next protest?

I read in last nights Bath Chronicle that the Wiltshire police will have a big problem if we try another protest as they seem to blame us for an accident that happened in lane 3!!They are threatening arrest for public order offences.Seems we got up some noses?If we were in France we would be burning tyres and blockading the motorway!Lets do it again.....

All the more reason to follow it up!

If they refuse then use thier refusal against them in the press.