Safe Speed Forums

Last night I got flashed by a Box Junction Camera in London, but am unsure weather to appeal when my fine arrives as I feel totally innocent of this offence.
This is because when I entered the box junction the exit was clear for me to proceed ( space for one car). As soon as I entered, a car in the right hand lane that was stuck behind a right turner cut in front of me and jumped into the space I was headed. Lights changed to red and then I got flashed!
If and when a fine comes do I pay then appeal or appeal straight away?
Or maybe am I over reacting was the camera flashing the right turner... if it was there still.
Thanks
Chris

I've never seen a box junction camera but I don't believe they flash, I thought they were CCTV type spy cameras with people watching you?

If the way was clear when you entered the junction then surely that's all that matters?

If you do get a fine don't pay it straight away, you'll have some time before you have to pay it and you can use that time to find ways to prove your innocence.

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Andrew.

I believe the rule for box junctions is that "You should not enter unless your exit is clear"

Provided that (as you claim) you complied with this rule I would say that you would have a defense should the worst happen!

As an aside. The often use vehicle mounted cameras to provide evidense in prosecutions. I wonder, has anybody ever (as a civillian) managed to use their own "Camera evidence" for their defense?

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

If it flashed then it was a red light camera. Box junctions are monitored by CCTV.

I don't want to sound like I'm judging too much here.....

But It would have to be one damn fast car to accelerate past you, pull in front and then stop within the space of a the average box junction. Mine's reasonably quick and I doubt I could do that with any margin of safety.

The only way I can picture this working would be if the other car entered the junction before you? Was his original lane for turning right only?

It would sound on the face of it as though you drove through the red light, perhaps to stop someone nicking "your space"??? I don' mean to sound accusative at all - I'm just trying to picture the whole scenario and how, mechanically it would need to work.

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I think you've miunderstood me.
I'm in the left hand lane and as I enter the box a car ( fiat punto ) which is in the right hand lane behind a right turner cuts in front of me, then into the space on the other side of the box I was originally aiming for.

Chris

Readers here might like to know that Transport for London issued a ticket to a motorist who entered a box junction to turn right !! This is, of course perfectly legal, so the ticket itself was an abuse of process, and in fact illegal. The person appealed to PATAS who upheld his appeal. It is somewhere on their web-site under 'Cases'.

Just shows you how ignorant they are who are in charge of this kind of thing. I suspect many more motorists ignorant of the law have just paid up.

Shame on Transport for London;no apology was issued.

No doubt nobody got the sack, probably promotion for zeal instead. Typical of the police state we now live in.

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Good manners maketh a good motorist

So the Punto was waiting in the box to already? Was there a space in the Punto's lane ahead of him and was the Punto's lane right turn only? Also on that point was the Punto indicating to turn right?

If not then it would sound as though the Punto had first crack at the space because he was going straight ahead into that space already as he was in the box before you. If you had got the space the Punto would have been stranded? No?

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Hmm that's interesting... Say there were 2 lanes going straight on which merge into one lane the other side of the box. Two cars want to go straight ahead, there is only space for one. You both go at the same time. Obviously only one of you can get into the space. But, as the way was clear before entering the box surely it's ok for both to enter at the same time? Hmm...

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Andrew.

Indeed Ziltro, although as I said first time round, it would take some car to out accelerate another, pull in and stop within the space of a box junction - and that's ruled out because it was a humble Fiat Punto.

I can't see how this scenario could mechanically work unless the Punto as a very minimum moved off first, and most probably was already waiting in the box junction to go straight ahead once the right turner had cleared.

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Well some box junctions in london are rather large, and I believe the vehicles sold for use in london are fitted with "on or off" accelerators, rather than the graduated ones you and I are used to. But maybe I'm imagining that...

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Andrew.

Basically we were both at a stand still when the space appeared but the punto is about 1 to 2 lengths ahead of me to the right. Hope this makes it clearer
Chris

From what Chris described in his message which started this thread, it seems to me that the Punto had already committed the offence of stopping in the boxed area, because it was stationary in the right-turn lane although it had no intention of turning right. Unfortunately, the camera would not have picked this up, because he was in the right-turn lane, and it is legal to stop in the boxed area when turning right.

Chris was in the correct lane, with space in his lane to exit on the other side of the junction. That space was then taken by the Punto driver who had already committed the offence of stopping, but then changed lanes to go straight on.

The problem is that Chris might have difficulty in proving it, unless there is a video showing what actually happened.

This might be a case where the camera doesn't tell the truth.

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David Hanstater

David
Thanks for that, a perfect explanation. You managed to explain it alot better than me.
I havn't heard anythng yet - it happened about 10 days ago, so I keeping my fingers crossed.

Chris

Don't red light cameras require movement to set them off? If so then I would suspect it's the Punto that's going to be done. Except that neither of you crossed the line while the lights were on red (since you were already in the box).

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Punto gave up on turning right seeing how long it was taking and wanting to get off the junction - or some other unclear rationale. So it may have been in the right to begin with.

In fact what we're saying here is that you might have obeyed the Highway Code (which says you shouldn't enter a box junction until the exit is clear) but disobeyed the law (which says you shouldn't enter a box junction such that you will have to stop within it). Under normal circs the latter allows you to keep going when you know the line of traffic is moving OK, whereas the former implies you have to stop and wait until the car in front has gone through it completely.

Ian

I didn't disobey the law as when I entered the box my path was clear all the way to the other side.

Chris

I still suspect that it was a misfire of the red light camera and that no nip will appear.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code