Safe Speed Forums

Having spent more than my fair share of time on the roads I was recently surprised by my own standard of driving. On a recent trip from Wales to West Brom (M4-M5) I had a driving instructor as a passenger. A few miles into the trip and having carried out a few lane changes he asked me if I ever checked the blind spot as I never turned my head to check. My answer was that I maintained awareness of what was in or aproaching my blind spot from constant mirror checks and that I only turned my head if I'd lost that awareness.

On further considering this as a potential flaw in my driving I came to the conclusion that this technique had probably allowed me to avoid countless potentially dangerous situations as I was confidently and safely able to carry out lane changes without a second thought when Mr or Mrs SMIDSY pulled out in front of me. Lets face it the only options available in this situation is to brake (sometimes heavily) or change lanes and the last thing you want to have to do is take your eyes off the idiot in front to check you aren't boxed in.

With 20 years of driving and having never bent a car or (to the best of my knowledge) causing someone else to have an accident, it is easy to become a little complacent and assume my driving technique must be good, so here is the question.

Does anyone else do this or have I thus far simply been lucky?

I think that you have been lucky.

Whilst I agree that the "constant awareness" approach is a correct approach to driving, not checking the blind does put others at risk.

As a biker its one of the nightmares that we face every day because we can just both find ourselves in a blind spot easier than a car and also normally have a larger Blind spot ourselves than a car.

Now personally I don't ride in someones blind but not all bikers are any good. Consider how fast a biker can go from not being on your radar to being along side you, either whilst filtering or if they are really cooking it on the motorway.

Not just that way round either, yesterday I was on the M3 middle lane at about 90 mph. I believed I'd been very aware of what was around me and approaching a slower vehicle started my routine to overtake. A check of the blind spot revealed a blue Subaru hiding there just waiting to eat me if I manouvered.

A blindspot check takes a fraction of a second, I dmit that in an emergency its likely to be dropped from a routine but if your really that aware of whats going on you don't get the need for panic braking do you

I agree with patch, I think you've been lucky. I too keep a constant awareness of what's around me, and coming up behind me, but I still check my blind spot whenever I change lanes, whether I'm moving out, or moving back in. It doesn't happen often, but every once in a while, there's something there that my general awareness hadn't picked up.


Kaz

I learned about this one from nearly being wiped out one sunny Sunday afternoon on the M1.

Was on my bike in L1, checked over shoulder was clear moved to L2, another check over shoulder as I moved into L2, (was passing middle lane owner ) L3 looked clear so continued to move over....vvvooooommmmmmm. Oh shit

An EXTREMELY fast moving Porsche appeared out of nowhere, he must have just been out of my peripheral view when I took my second look.

I now look each time I'm about to make that move.

I have a foot in both camps in this debate. I do practice continuous awareness, and sometimes use it to NOT make a blind spot check.

But you have to be very aware of the limitations. For example, moving from L3 to L2 on a busy motorway cannot be undertaken safely without a blind spot check - something may have pulled out of L1 in your blind spot and started accelerating in L2.

On the other hand, when planning to pull out to overtake, I monitor mirror, ahead, mirror, ahead intensively. In this circumstance I'd rather not take to time to check over my shoulder to confirm my already complete knowledge.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

It's important to see the blind spot check in the same way bikers do the lifesafer. See it as insurance. The chances are your 'mirror memory' will be sufficient 9/10 times because following traffic would have been spotted.

However, we are only human and sometimes miss things or things happen too quickly. The consequences of not seeing something are huge.

So you'd need to probably tripple your mirror checks to be sure, but this will mean less focus on what is in front (the real hazard).

I'd say in the last 5 years, I've probably been saved by lifesavers/blind spot checks about 3 or 4 times out of maybe 1 million checks? That's a good return on investment as far as I'm concerned.

Safety in any form is about having backups and the same applies to driving or riding.

I used to drive this way. It went on for years. I am, by nature, lazy and selfish. I must have had a good memory for spatial awareness, though, because nobody ever sneaked into that slot without me logging it. Then I had a close shave, and it dawned on me that I was lucky. In any case, it stretches the vertebrae in your neck which keeps you limber.

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I stole this .sig

He was speeding, I'll guess. Bleeding pest.

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I stole this .sig

awareness

i drive a car pretty much every day, i also have a motorbike that tends to be used mainly at weekends (you can't carry pc's, servers, cisco routers etc on a honda cbr600, even with panniers!).

i believe that awareness is the MOST VITAL component of any driver/ rider on the roads. if you are not aware of what you or those around you are doing (overtaking speeding tailgating etc whatever) then your lack of awareness WILL catch up with you, probably sooner rather than later.

the backward glance over your right shoulder (lifesaver in biker parlance) does work. i use it all the time both on the bike and in the car. it has saved my bacon on numerous occasions using both vehicles.

in the car i use all 3 mirrors and still use lifesaver checks, on the bike i have to use lifesavers cos all the mirrors show me is how many insects have hit my elbows today!

the moral (if there is one) is ...


STAY VIGILANT !!!

at all times. you never know when something will steam up in your blind spot and if you make a wrong move you will get hit.

i've had that experience on the bike when i was travelling at what i thought was uncatchable (but legal ossifer) speeds on a nice windy road only to find a tvr cerbera coming past me when i least expected it. nice car though! i've also had this happen in a school 20mph zone when 4 lads in a clapped out nova came past me doing 40+ at school letting out time and nearly wiped out a family of four.

speed doesn't really come into this, despite my experiences above. awareness is what matters. use your observational skiils. look out for dangers, from all directions. if you are on a bike treat all cars like homicidal maniacs (they're not but it hurts just as bad either way!)

but in the end, stay aware. no matter what speed you're doing, or whether its legal or not.

drive (& ride) safe one and all

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the day i stop learning is the day i get put in a box

I generally don't do blind spot checks when changing lanes on the motorway, tending to rely more on knowing what's around me by checking my mirrors in the period leading up to changing lanes. I normally reserve actually turning round to look for when I've lost full awareness of what's around me, which doesn't happen too often. However, next time I'm on the motorway I shall see if I can incorporate blind spot checks into my routine, as from this thread it would certainly seem that they are worthwhile.



Another excellent reason for blind spot checks, if there wasn't enough already!

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-mike[F]
Caught in the rush of the crowd, lost in a wall of sound..

Some motorcyclists are too stupid to realise that if they sit in the blind spot of a car on a motorway, there is a good chance that they wont be seen by any mirror checks and a good chance that a driver will have forgot that they are there when they change lanes.

I know why bikers do it, there is a feeling of space when you sit staggerred to the traffic as you have a 'clear' view of the road ahead. It also puts you in a good position to filter when the traffic bunches up.

Unfortunately this results in the most risk for least gain, as it is vital that we first slow with the traffic (who will be darting all over the place as they see the queue) before consider slipping up the middle.

How do you know you practice "continuous awareness"? This is a dangerous and from a safe driving point of view a ridiculous statement to make. You are now introducing CHANCE in your driving technique to save turning your head. Very poor indeed and a prime indication of why you are not a driving or road safety expert.


This can happen on any road, as the motorcyclists have explained here.


Hopefully the motorcyclist or car driver who has just arrived rapidly and taken position to overtake will recover enough strength to prevent you from turning your head or using your arms to steer a vehicle again after you have knocked them off or crashed.
The lifesaver is valid in any vehicle and shoud be used on every occassion. After all, it doesn't take much to do does it and it prevents all this cr*p about " I monitor mirror, ahead, mirror, ahead intensively " and this arrogant nonesense such as " I'd rather not take to time to check over my shoulder to confirm my already complete knowledge " .
WHY? A quick turn of the head is quicker, safer, more complete and a darn sight easier to complete that your made up rubbish.

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It's Champion Man

This post is unecessary, offensive and completely wrong.

The "lifesaver" question is rather like the indicator debate (should I indicate when no one is there?). In zillions of circumstances the precautionary principle applies - knowledge is uncertain so one must indicate or lifesaver. In other circumstances we have clear and certain knowledge and it might be reasonable and safe not to "lifesaver".

I'm satified with my personal driving in this respect because I haven't made a blind spot mistake in living memory - certainly not for 20 years and over 500,000 miles. But my driving has absolutely no bearing on my knowledge or understanding of the subject. Understanding of theory and the ability to put it into practice are completely different skills. I always try to driver better but like everyone else I make mistakes. Experience and effort both tend to reduce the both the frequency and the significance of errors. But neither experience not effort can deliver perfection.

Perfect awareness of other road users positions, movements and intentions is a vital goal of good driving practice and it won't be well served if we deliver attention to an area that does not require it.

And finally I have not given advice on the matter - I simply stated an opinion and prefaced it with: "I have a foot in both camps in this debate".

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

So you have driven a fair distance in 20 years without incident but because of this you are now willing to assume that your driving is now approaching perfection, so much so you don't need to use a simple and effective technique to maintain improve that situation.


An to be perfectly frank, it is unachievable by you or anyone else but a simple look over the shoulder will bring you closer.

To say that you have driven far and for so long without incident doesn't make you a remarkable driver does it? It makes you probably about average. The huge proportion of drivers could make similar statements........then CRASH! Out of the windo gores there perfect record and for what, the look over the shoulder.

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It's Champion Man

Er no. Mistakes outnumber near misses by a significant factor. Near misses outnumber accidents by a significant factor. Accidents outnumber injury accidents by a significant factor. Each of these factors is around an order of magnitude, and I'm counting mistakes. An injury accident is around three orders of mangitude less likely than a mistake.

And let's be completely clear:

I'm not advocating that anyone forgoes a blind spot check - they must make their own decision based on experience and the exact situation. However I do advocate most strongly that everyone should learn from their mistakes.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Well, the other day I tried doing a blind spot check every time I changed lanes. It felt completely unnatural, and it was quite unnerving having to distract my view from the road ahead for the time it took to turn right round and back. It certainly didn't seem any safer, as it occurred to me that every time I turned my head I knew what I was going to be looking at. There's very rarely anyone there, and if there is I already know they're there because I've seen and/or am watching them in my mirrors. I guess having a small car helps reduce the danger of blind spots as well.

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-mike[F]
Caught in the rush of the crowd, lost in a wall of sound..

So it's alll down to chance then. Wise words indeed these..."I do advocate most strongly that everyone should learn from their mistakes.".
The check over the shoulder would prevent scores of accidents on motorways and dual carriageways alone. Never mind, we can all give it a miss, collide and learn from our mistakes.
Then there would be less of us saying we can drive 500,000 miles in 20 years and be in perfect awareness.

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It's Champion Man

And therin lies the roblem. Can't be bothered so I'll increase the risk.
It doesn't take long to get to the situation where a manouvre without the check is unnatural.

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It's Champion Man

I can see both sides of this debate. The argument against the "life-saver" is like the argument against un-necessary indicating, which is that if you make the commitment to only indicating when there is someone to indicate to, then by inference you are making the commitment to ensuring that you always know whether there is someone else there, which requires a higher level of observation then simply indicating "by rote".

From my own point of view I don't think I'll ever break the habit of the "life-saver", as it was drummed into me at an early age when I was a motorcyclist, but at the same time I can still understand the principle behind improving observation to make it less necessary. I try to improve my observation and awareness so that I would be able to make a "non-life-saver" lane change in an emergency situation, but not in normal driving.

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

That's not both sides - that's my exact position. I see "both sides" in exactly the same way.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety