Safe Speed Forums

Have any forum members got information regarding the use of laser speed devices at night. I cannot find a single piece of guidance relating to whether these devices should be used in the hours of darkness?

Absoloutely nothing wrong with using it during the hours of darkness, the only danger is for the operator if they are stood out then it becomes a health and safety issue.
Stephen

I know they can be used at night but I'm looking for guidance on the use of such devices at night in relation to identification.

I know Cumbria Police have been trialling a 'soft light' camera device for use at night but this is a completely new system.

So if anyone has anything I would be grateful

Teletraffic

Anyone got anything in a user manual about hand held devices being used at night...how to target vehicles...identification etc?

Don't forget to find out how they form a prior opinion of the vehicle's speed before confirming it with the scamera.

_________________
Less Kodak, more Kojak.
In times of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

It's not just 'once the daylight goes'...

The photographs or video can never provide legal proof of identity. Since the court requires evidence 'beyond a reasonable doubt' two pieces of 'crap' kick in:

1) S172 requires effectively a signed confession
2) The Camera Partnership / CPS bluff that the photo provides proof of identity in the hope of getting a signed confession / guilty plea.

Bottom line: In speed camera cases where driver identity is in dispute they don't have any evidence of driver identity. All they have is bluff and bluster.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Talivans do not normally operate in the hours of darkness. Potential problems include:

1) Prior opinion of speed.
2) Getting adequate video on the number plate.
3) difficulties in targetting the speed meter - especially oncoming vehicles

On occasion they might have a go in well street lit areas, but out of town... Forget it.

Camera Operator... Have you ever worked in full darkness?

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Having used the Lti 20 / 20 with video many times I would state myreputation that any one who uses it at night would struggle to I/D anything due to the flair of the headlights and the poor lighting conditions for the quality of the video.

I do however use the Lti 20/20 at night without video and have no probs with it either forming an opinion or locking onto said number plate,as I always stop and give driver verbal N.I.P. along with ticket.
Stephen

Once saw a talivan parked in clear view (half behind a big sign) as usual in late dusk/darkness.

However, the "speed kills" tendency are also the "health and safety" tendency, so for some reason, the yellow beacon on the roof was flashing.

Bit of a giveaway....

though

No, no fancy gizmo's on it just form point read and stop as simple as that if it is easy.
Stephen

... and when the motorist swears he was under the limit, certain, looked at the speedo and it was on the line when he saw you etce etc... then what?

In that case...
The officer in question claims, in the witness box, to be able to tell a speed +/- 2 mph in the dark with the car's headlights on. The LTI 20-20, which, as we all know, is infallible, confirms it, and the driver is proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt by our highly independent and untainted judiciary.

Dont forget the set limit is not just 5 or 6 mph over the speed limit, its 50% + so not many people deny it, they do say however I didnt realise I was going that fast.
I am more than 100% happy that the checks that I do prior ie. distance, alignment checks, etc are all in order. I have no need and never will have any to say that someone is breaking the law when they are not so I can confidently stand in the box and say that the speed and distance recorded is accurate to the best of my ability. And if the equipment is faulty it will tell you by giving an error reading.
Stephen

Stephen

Do you ever work with an LTi2020 at a large distance (>500m) on a dual carriageway/motorway, and if so, do you truly believe in your ability to judge an approaching vehicle's speed in, say, the 50 or so metres that he may be in view from the horizon (or visibility point of a shallow bend or whatever) to the 500 metre point to say with conviction that a large saloon doing around 90 is in excess of 70? Personally, unless there are other cars of nominally known fixed speed in the same field of view, I have difficulty saying if one big car is doing 70 or 120 from a vantage point where the car is appropaching me from that distance. Likewise, a Mini doing 70 seems to me to be going far quicker at that distance as it approaches me in the window (500 - 550m) to which I refer.

OK Stephen - here's my opinion for what it's worth.

You say that you only stop people doing above 45 in a 30, and on another post, you say that this is then in an area where there are other hazards. TBH I think people driving at those sorts of speeds with pedestrians etc. around, then they are probably driving recklessly, and I guess the sort of people many on this forum would say deserve to be stopped, as they are driving at an inappropriate speed. At those sorts of speeds, it would be relatively easy to form a prior opinion as well. I take it at face value when you say that you do this first. You also say that you stop the vehicle afterwards, and give them a verbal NIP. You also say on another post that if they can give you a good reason for travelling at that speed, you will consider letting them off. I also take it on face value that if the speed device gave you a grossly incorrect reading, you might disregard it.

This, I think, fairly reasonably describes the traditional form of law enforcement (Apart from the technology), as it was prior to the introduction of speed cameras. I personally would not be too disgruntled if caught in this way. If it were to happen, I would be embarrassed about being pulled over and would accept a FPN. The only issue would be if the speed limit was unclear - particularly with regard to street lamps - although if there were lots of hazards, I probably wouldn't be doing this speed even in a NSL area. This sort of enforcement, if done well, could and should save lives, as you stop people driving at an inappropriate speed.

Where many people, including myself, have an issue is with the 10% + 2, i.e. being done for 35 mph in a 30 mph limit, or sometimes even below. Someone I know was done for 32 mph in a 30. I have seen so many PC's with speed detection devices zapping every single car as it went past, and not even bothering whether they think it's going fast or not, and blindly believing whatever the device tells them. No device is 100% foolproof. On top of that, the drivers don't hear about it for 2 weeks. In the case of company cars, anything up to 4 months. They sometimes don't even know they've been caught, and have no opportunity to explain why they were going fast or helped to modify future driving behaviour. Often this enforcement is on wide, open roads with no hazards on a Sunday afternoon with no other traffic at all about. Then they're told, if they want an explanation, or even a photo, they can't accept a FPN, but will have to plead 'Not guilty'. (BTW, I was told the only way that they would give out a photo is if I pleaded 'Not guilty'). Then, if you do plead 'Not guilty', the courts treat everything a PC has to say as gospel, and everything the driver has to say with contempt.

If you were to follow me for 10 miles in a 30 zone, and I stuck to 30 throughout, apart from at the bottom of a hill on a wide road with no hazards where my speed nudged up to 35 mph, would you stop me and issue a FPN? You've already said not, but I guess the same is true for the vast majority of your colleagues. Yet this is precisely the sort of place that speed cameras are located. It doesn't make for better drivers, or more considerate, observant, alert drivers. It instead creates a nation of needle gazers.

How many other offences do you know where the perpetrator doesn't know he's committed an offence, where there are no victims and where there is nearly always a conviction when the only evidence is provided by a single witness with no other corroborating evidence whatsoever? (I'm not counting the device as the PC only has to make a note of what it says, so if bloody minded enough couldmake it up). Yet the penalty could be to deprive someone of their livelihood.

It's no wonder that speed enforcement has got such a bad name. And it's doing a disservice not only to enforcement of inappropriate speeds as described above, but to the police service and CJS as a whole.

The thing is, you don't need the device to identify a driver, because you stop them, so you know who it is. You don't need them to self-incriminate for the same reason - you can personally identify them. And you don't need the device to tell you they were breaking the speed limit. It's only confirming your prior opinion. If that is the case I quite understand why you think it's perfectly adequate in the dark. I'm not saying I agree, only that I understand your point of view.

Rant over.

Roger,
The CPS guidelines for useage in prosecution distance are set by them at no more than 300m this I think is a fair distance to operate at, however I on occassions check the speed of vehicles outside this distance and continue to check them to see at what distance they actually see me at, it is a sad fact that a vast majotity of drivers are nearly level with you before they see you, and some are going past you when they see you and then the brake lights are coming on.
I never carry out checks on dual carriageways as I dont think in my opinion that these roads should be targeted for speed alone, I do target motorists who drive too close to the car in front, along with middle lane hoggers along with mobile phone drivers. If I check there speed it is for a combination of factors which could contribute to a collsion.
Stephen

If I were to telephone and report a motorist for using a mobile at the wheel, with time place and reg. number, what would be the chances of getting the case to court, or a conviction?
Presumably the phone log, and the cell records would verify my witness statement. The only defence might be a claim the passenger was using it.

I only ask because I have twice been worried at the driving of lorry drivers on the M6 using phones. I have seen more, but (sometimes) their driving was impeccable despite the phone clamped to the ear!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Thank you, Stephen.