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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:52 
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Interesting opinion piece here from Richard Wellings (who posts a lot of transport-related stuff on Twitter at @RichardWellings)

http://www.iea.org.uk/blog/the-case-for ... eed-limits

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If major roads were privately owned and freed of government regulation, the setting of speed limits would be a commercial decision. Entrepreneurs would seek to attract customers to their routes in order to maximise toll revenues, and one way of doing so would be to offer fast journey times by allowing high speeds.

But road owners would also face a series of trade-offs when setting speed limits. Under busy conditions, high speeds can reduce capacity, which in turn would reduce toll revenues. And in some locations, high speeds could increase the risk of accidents, potentially damaging the reputation of operators and reducing revenues through delays and higher insurance costs.

To a large extent, trade-offs between speed and other considerations would be time and place specific, depending on the nature of the infrastructure and its usage patterns. Moreover, since the decisions would be commercial, they would be beyond the scope of politics and the undue influence of special interest groups.

In this context, it is inconceivable that private road operators would set speed limits that not only increased journey times and lowered productivity but also worsened congestion and raised significantly the risk of serious accidents. Yet such controls are imposed by the government with its centralised approach to speed on state-owned roads.

Perhaps the most egregious example is the national 40mph limit imposed on heavy goods vehicles on single carriageway routes. This imposes substantial delays and productivity losses on the road haulage sector. And since roads carry around 70 per cent of freight within the UK, this has a significant impact on the wider economy. Worse still, slow-moving trucks create long tailbacks of other road users, for whom the national limit on such roads is 60mph. Delayed and frustrated, car drivers and motorists frequently engage in dangerous overtaking manoeuvres – the cause of a high proportion of fatalities and serious injuries on the network.

The government is currently considering raising the lorry limit on single carriageways to either 45mph or 50mph, but the move is opposed by various special interests. If roads are to remain outside the market economy for the foreseeable future, then transport policymakers should at least adopt a more commercial approach to managing the network. This means raising speed limits where it benefits users and basing policy on a rational consideration of the economic trade-offs rather than the demands of lobby groups.

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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 16:03 
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Wellings wrote:
Perhaps the most egregious example is the national 40mph limit imposed on heavy goods vehicles on single carriageway routes. This imposes substantial delays and productivity losses on the road haulage sector.



Really?

Allow them to travel at 80 then and see how many end up on their side or in hedges, blocking roads for hours. Then we can count the cost of that and compare the two, I bet 40 comes out more cost effective.

Wellings can't seem to ever see the other side of the coin, too blinded by his own agenda.


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 16:06 
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And this:

Submitted by HJ on Thu, 09/05/2013 - 15:14.

The problem with the report that Richard Wellings cites (his own report) is that it is severely flawed as it neither mentions nor discusses the interests of non-motorised road users. We know, from studies and experience in the Netherlands, Denmark, etc. that better provision for cyclists and pedestrians lowers congestion for all road users (quite apart from environmental and other advantages), yet he doesn't even consider how they would be provided for under his proposals.


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 16:33 
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Quote:
Really?

Allow them to travel at 80 then and see how many end up on their side or in hedges, blocking roads for hours. Then we can count the cost of that and compare the two, I bet 40 comes out more cost effective.

Wellings can't seem to ever see the other side of the coin, too blinded by his own agenda.


i don't see any where in the report where he suggests they travel at 80MPH, perhaps you could point this out to me!

AND while you are at it you could answer the question I raised on the other post, where I asked if you never travelled at 60MPH on a quite, straight rural A road.

Cue Weepy submerges for a few more days...... :lostatsea:

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 16:40 
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weepej wrote:
Allow them to travel at 80 then and see how many end up on their side or in hedges, blocking roads for hours. Then we can count the cost of that and compare the two, I bet 40 comes out more cost effective.

Straw man alert :P

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Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 16:51 
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weepej wrote:
Wellings wrote:
Perhaps the most egregious example is the national 40mph limit imposed on heavy goods vehicles on single carriageway routes. This imposes substantial delays and productivity losses on the road haulage sector.

Really?

Allow them to travel at 80 then and see how many end up on their side or in hedges, blocking roads for hours. Then we can count the cost of that and compare the two, I bet 40 comes out more cost effective.
Yes, how dare "they" suggest HGVs do 80 mph. This is exactly how the war started!!! :x

Too soon? :P

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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 17:12 
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:lol:

Cue excert from the song, "Charlie Brown"


"Why's everybody always picking on me?....."

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 18:07 
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This stuff is great for showing weepej for the paranoid bedwetter he is. He will pass his remark or accusation off as a joke or exaggeration for the sake of emphasis, but if that were the case notice the absence of a smilie from this most seasoned of posters. I think he really believes what he says. :shock:

Send a lifeboat out for him Grabs :wink:

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You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 23:26 
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As others have pointed out, I don't think there was any suggestion of HGVs being allowed to do 80 on NSL SCs! Also, I don't see the provision of better cycling facilities as necessarily being mutually exclusive with the raising of motorway and major road speed limits? HGV speed limiter settings are an EU decision, so we're unlikely to get them changed, regardless of what we decide to do with our national speed limits. That leaves us with a (rather less hysterical) 56 limit for HGVs on NSL SCs.

My personal experience of this (having done a fair few miles on them, regularly) is that lighter goods vehicles tend not to cause the long queues (and thus, lunatic overtaking manoeuvres) that HGVs cause. In fact, you could just as easily find that overall safety is IMPROVED by this. Who knows? MAYBE you'll even find average car speeds reduced as they contentedly chug along at 56 (which is close enough to the limit to be hardly worth overtaking for). Certainly, it's an experiment I'd be more than willing to carry out for a couple of years!


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 06:18 
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PeterE wrote:
weepej wrote:
Allow them to travel at 80 then and see how many end up on their side or in hedges, blocking roads for hours. Then we can count the cost of that and compare the two, I bet 40 comes out more cost effective.

Straw man alert :P


Purposeful exaggeration to highlight a point :P


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 08:28 
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graball wrote:
AND while you are at it you could answer the question I raised on the other post, where I asked if you never travelled at 60MPH on a quite, straight rural A road.

Cue Weepy submerges for a few more days...... :lostatsea:


Can we stop this ad hominin, now cross thread, abuse please.

I did answer your question, you just weren't reading hard enough.


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 08:41 
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Well just in case I missed it perhaps you could either repeat the answer or point me to the answer to....

"do you never travel at 60MPH on a straight clear NSL, in ideal conditions?"

Both me and Peter highlighted a couple of examples to help you grasp what we are talking about.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 09:05 
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graball wrote:
Well just in case I missed it perhaps you could either repeat the answer or point me to the answer to....

"do you never travel at 60MPH on a straight clear NSL, in ideal conditions?"

Both me and Peter highlighted a couple of examples to help you grasp what we are talking about.



Yeah, already answered that many times in the past. OF course I do.


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 10:37 
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Quote:
PeterE wrote:
weepej wrote:
Allow them to travel at 80 then and see how many end up on their side or in hedges, blocking roads for hours. Then we can count the cost of that and compare the two, I bet 40 comes out more cost effective.

Straw man alert :P


Purposeful exaggeration to highlight a point :P


It looks to me to be more like the frightened bedwetting and ridiculous scaremongering that a sham bunch like Brake might use.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 00:14 
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The speed is 40 on s/c roads because of the lengthy stopping distance of trucks.
140 feet at 40 mph, but over 300 feet at 60 mph.
Compare those to a car..60 and 130 feet.
Not only that, but if a truck hits a car it is a body-bag job, if there are passengers, multiple body-bags.
One drove into a jcb just up the road the other day....another body-bag job (hey, if the driver couldn't spot a bright yellow digger....)

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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 00:25 
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jomukuk wrote:
The speed is 40 on s/c roads because of the lengthy stopping distance of trucks.
140 feet at 40 mph, but over 300 feet at 60 mph.
Compare those to a car..60 and 130 feet.
Not only that, but if a truck hits a car it is a body-bag job, if there are passengers, multiple body-bags.
One drove into a jcb just up the road the other day....another body-bag job (hey, if the driver couldn't spot a bright yellow digger....)
I always love it when you post bud :-)

So what's the deal with coaches Jom? About 45 precious human cargo in a 'HGV' doing 70+ mph verses an Argos HGV carrying folding beds and laptops limited to 50... :?

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 09:12 
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Big Tone wrote:
jomukuk wrote:
The speed is 40 on s/c roads because of the lengthy stopping distance of trucks.
140 feet at 40 mph, but over 300 feet at 60 mph.
Compare those to a car..60 and 130 feet.
Not only that, but if a truck hits a car it is a body-bag job, if there are passengers, multiple body-bags.
One drove into a jcb just up the road the other day....another body-bag job (hey, if the driver couldn't spot a bright yellow digger....)
I always love it when you post bud :-)

So what's the deal with coaches Jom? About 45 precious human cargo in a 'HGV' doing 70+ mph verses an Argos HGV carrying folding beds and laptops limited to 50... :?


That's being addressed apparently.

http://www.busandcoach.com/newspage.asp ... tegoryid=0

You write as if you think the Argos truck should be allowed to do 70mph on the motorway becuase some older coaches can (many modern coaches are speed limits), do you really?


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 09:47 
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weepej wrote:
You write as if you think the Argos truck should be allowed to do 70mph on the motorway becuase some older coaches can (many modern coaches are speed limits), do you really?
Actually, and in all honesty, you have me wrong there. I was simply thinking how or why coaches are allowed to go so fast when you consider they can have so much precious cargo on board compared to a regular HGV. I haven't considered it any more than that and I am open to the merits, demerits and real statistics and facts surrounding coach speeds.

So over to anyone who knows more about this than me...

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 09:58 
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Big Tone wrote:
weepej wrote:
You write as if you think the Argos truck should be allowed to do 70mph on the motorway becuase some older coaches can (many modern coaches are speed limits), do you really?
Actually, and in all honesty, you have me wrong there. I was simply thinking how or why coaches are allowed to go so fast when you consider they can have so much precious cargo on board compared to a regular HGV.


Well, it certainly read to me as "if coaches full of people can legally travel at 70 I think the Argos truck should be allowed to as well". If you reread I think you'd agree right?


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 10:41 
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weepej wrote:
Big Tone wrote:
jomukuk wrote:
The speed is 40 on s/c roads because of the lengthy stopping distance of trucks.
140 feet at 40 mph, but over 300 feet at 60 mph.
Compare those to a car..60 and 130 feet.
Not only that, but if a truck hits a car it is a body-bag job, if there are passengers, multiple body-bags.
One drove into a jcb just up the road the other day....another body-bag job (hey, if the driver couldn't spot a bright yellow digger....)
I always love it when you post bud :-)

So what's the deal with coaches Jom? About 45 precious human cargo in a 'HGV' doing 70+ mph verses an Argos HGV carrying folding beds and laptops limited to 50... :?


That's being addressed apparently.

http://www.busandcoach.com/newspage.asp ... tegoryid=0

You write as if you think the Argos truck should be allowed to do 70mph on the motorway because some older coaches can (many modern coaches are speed limits), do you really?


Did you actually read that link that you posted, Weepy?

"...The plan addresses an anomaly in current legislation whereby modern coaches fitted with speed limiters are limited to 62.5mph on the motorway while older coaches without speed limiters can legally travel at up to 70mph...."

This is purely a "fix" because older coaches don't have the type of electronic engine management systems that allow speed limiters to be restrospectively fitted. The article goes on to say:

"...Road safety minister Paul Clark explains: “We want to provide clarity for everybody - drivers, operators, other motorists and the police - as well as making sure that there is a level playing field for those operating in the bus, coach and road haulage industry. These proposals simplify motorway speed limits for buses, coaches and lorries so that everyone has to abide by the same rules regardless of the age of their vehicle....”

Basically (as it common knowledge in the bus and coach industry), the speed limiter requirements have created a perverse incentive to hang on to older coaches for longer (which is bad for safety and the environment). It's typical of legislation introduced "because suddenly the technology makes it possible" rather than "because there is a need for it". Do you actually have a breakdown of the causes of coach accidents? If so, I'd be interested to know how many were caused by a coach doing 70, that would have been prevented by it doing 62.5. I have my own ideas on the subject, and it'll not surprise you to hear it's a "round" number...

By far and away the biggest improvement you could make to coach safety is to get the muppets inside to wear their seat belts.


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