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 Post subject: Re: open and shut case??
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 22:11 
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graball wrote:
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As for what Dyche admitted at the scene, that should largely be ignored. People blubber all sorts of things when in a state of shock


One paper reported that the woman said something along the lines "I thought to myself, have I just killed my family?" Surely that is just as damming as dyche's statement?


Both statements need to be taken with the same amount of pinch of salt. The mind doesn't perform logically in situations of shock like this.


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 Post subject: Re: open and shut case??
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 22:18 
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graball wrote:

I must admit, that after driving vans for so many years, I tend to use mainly wing mirrors...both sides. (including for reversing) much more than interior mirrors these days


likewise, as in the past ten or so years I've spent a lot more time in vans than my own car. In fact, I miss the better rearward vision on larger vans as opposed to cars. But that is the experience of those of us that have of necessity adapted to wing mirrors. How many of those of similar age have never driven anything where it's not possible to see out of the rear window.

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 Post subject: Re: open and shut case??
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 22:29 
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167 wrote:
DO NOT overtake where you might come into conflict with other road users. For example

............when you would force another road user to swerve or slow down..................


This, I was always led to believe, means oncoming traffic, if you are overtaking and oncoming traffic has to brake to let you in, or swerve to their nearside, then you have not allowed sufficient space for the overtake.

When overtaking traffic, it is impossible to know for sure what the person (or persons) in front of you may do, even if you have followed them for some time and built up a picture in your mind of what you think they may or may not do. All you can do is leave as much space as you can, be alert for any idiotic moves and be prepared to abort/brake/swerve, if they do pull out on you without looking or warning. If I'm following a dodderer along a narrow lane and they look as if they haven't noticed me behind, I will often flash my lights to notify them that i am there, before overtaking.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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 Post subject: Re: open and shut case??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 07:41 
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Unfortunately, flashing lights or tooting the horn to alert someone of your presence is interpreted by just these types of dodderers as "aggressive behaviour" and they will then position themselves to block your overtake.

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 Post subject: Re: open and shut case??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:32 
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...so the limit would be 50mph


No idea if this is correct - but if it was, and the other vehicles were doing 40mph as reported, than Dyches planned overtake of more than one vehicle was not something that was going to happen quickly, and somebody indicating to pull out across the opposite carriageway could reasonably expect a vehicle approaching from behind to see their indication, and adjust their course accordingly.

Of course, if he were attempting a reckless foot to the floor passing manouvre, it is likely he was not watching the vehicles he was passing as much as the road ahead looking for oncoming traffic...

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 Post subject: Re: open and shut case??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:59 
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Ernest Marsh wrote:
... and somebody indicating to pull out across the opposite carriageway could reasonably expect a vehicle approaching from behind to see their indication, and adjust their course accordingly.

I disagree with this. Somebody wishing to pull out should look and see the car approaching from behind and abort the manoeuvre turning off their indicator. The only course open to the overtaking vehicle would be to brake hard and pull back in behind the queue. How does this stand with Rule 167:

"when you would force another road user to swerve or slow down"?

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 Post subject: Re: open and shut case??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:40 
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malcolmw wrote:
Ernest Marsh wrote:
... and somebody indicating to pull out across the opposite carriageway could reasonably expect a vehicle approaching from behind to see their indication, and adjust their course accordingly.

I disagree with this. Somebody wishing to pull out should look and see the car approaching from behind and abort the manoeuvre turning off their indicator. The only course open to the overtaking vehicle would be to brake hard and pull back in behind the queue. How does this stand with Rule 167:


I think the devil is in the detail here.... the who should have done what when question seems to be very reliant on relative positions & timings.. none of which we know in any detail and it seems you could speculate either way. If it was open & shut we wouldnt have made it to 3 pages :D

Clearly some fault on both parties, as previously mentioned probably the case in almost every collision.
I frequently miss laybys or possible turning spots because i've spotted them too late or they're just too risky a manouvre.


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 Post subject: Re: open and shut case??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:43 
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malcolmw wrote:
Ernest Marsh wrote:
... and somebody indicating to pull out across the opposite carriageway could reasonably expect a vehicle approaching from behind to see their indication, and adjust their course accordingly.

I disagree with this. Somebody wishing to pull out should look and see the car approaching from behind and abort the manoeuvre turning off their indicator. The only course open to the overtaking vehicle would be to brake hard and pull back in behind the queue. How does this stand with Rule 167:

"when you would force another road user to swerve or slow down"?

But we are talking about a vehicle which should be approaching at no more than 10mph from two cars back.

Check mirror - car two cars back is pulling out
Check view ahead - indicate for the manouvre to the lay by.

At 10mph, the car behind should not be in a position to punt the people carrier from the road - unless the car behind was foot to the floor and not paying attention to the vehicles he was passing... in which case his wrong trumps hers by a good deal.

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 Post subject: Re: open and shut case??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 13:41 
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Firstly, I don't think that road is a 50MPH limit, it certainly wasn't when I was last on it 2 years back and it's not the sort of road that would "normally" get a 50MPH limit.

Secondly, I was always taught that to make a good safe overtake, then the least time on the opposite carriageway was the secret, if that means exceeding a speed limit for a few seconds, rather than passing a vehicle at little more than a running pace then I would always go for the minimum time approach. Obviously you have to take into the account the idiot who may pull out on you but at the same time that's what they, are a dangerous idiot. No one is faultless in this case, as I see it.
The fact that she had to question the driver behind her if she indicated or not, put doubts into my mind as much as hers, whether she did actually notice the cars behind her. Any competent driver wouldn't have to ask that question , they would know with certainty that they had seen the following cars, decided that they had no intention of overtaking, judged that they were a safe enough distance behind to start indicating and braking without danger of the following vehicle "rear-ending" them.Then check the opposite carriageway for cars approaching. Does it sound like she went through these checks to anyone?

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


Last edited by graball on Tue Sep 04, 2012 13:46, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: open and shut case??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 13:44 
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Ernest wrote:
But we are talking about a vehicle which should be approaching at no more than 10mph from two cars back.

Check mirror - car two cars back is pulling out
Check view ahead - indicate for the manouvre to the lay by.

Fine, except for the last statement which should read:

"Carry on and do nothing until the car has safely passed."

Just ask yourself, would you have pulled across after seeing someone going to overtake you? You have to remember that the car wishing to pull over to the right will be intending to slow to a stop as it crosses the path of the overtaking vehicle. This makes it almost impossible for the overtaker to stop in time - even at just 50mph.

I agree with ed-m that all this is speculative as we need to know the exact timings of everything but I don't accept your implied position that the leading car was essentially blameless.

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 Post subject: Re: open and shut case??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 16:31 
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Back in 1986 I was in a collision with a concrete milk churn jetty because I rushed into an overtake which I had been anticipating for a couple of miles.I knew a straight stretch of road with good views ahead was coming up - and as I approached the final bend, I hung back - then accelerated forwards ready to make the snap decision as to whether to commit or abort the overtake.

I was in a Fiesta 1.1 and the vehicle in front was a DAF Variomatic
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=A65,+United+Kingdom&hl=en&ll=54.103017,-2.345667&spn=0.012581,0.042272&geocode=FZreOAMd0_Dc_w&hnear=A65,+LS29,+United+Kingdom&t=m&z=15&layer=c&cbll=54.103023,-2.345862&panoid=cJQkkMpf3OpQpImbi4KiXQ&cbp=12,261.38,,0,0.13
As I got to within a car length of the DAF, travelling at about 55mph behind a car doing 35, te other driver suddenly pulled right over to the middle of the road, and put his right indicator on.
The only junction was some way ahead - but I knew I couldn't risk squeezing through the narrowing gap on the right, so I braked hard and steered to the left where there was a equal gap and more verge - smack bang into the jetty of concrete and railway sleepers which left the Fiesta somewhat shorter, and with a crease in the roof!

Now the thing is, while I still think to indicate and make for the centre so far from the junction was unnecessary, I don't hold the other driver responsible for the collision - that was down to youthful exuberance, and taking the driver unawares by the degree of acceleration I achieved in the bend before the straight.

I think Dyche has done the same thing - and in causing deaths, has paid the price. The Highway Code is clear on this.
I have not said the woman was blameless, and I think had it not been for the deaths, nobody would have been prosecuted... but Dyche caused the fatalities with which he has been charged.

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 Post subject: Re: open and shut case??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 16:59 
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I don't hold the other driver responsible for the collision...

He was though, by inadequate observation.

Are you really saying that people with faster accellerating cars should be somehow more culpable than slower ones as they can surprise other drivers?

IMO, Dyche contributed to the fatalities. The cause was multiple failures of observation and anticipation by all concerned.

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 Post subject: Re: open and shut case??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 18:16 
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I think Dyche has done the same thing - and in causing deaths, has paid the price. The Highway Code is clear on this.


I'm sorry, Ernest but I have yet to see anything in the highway code that you have quoted, that Dyche has done against the advice of the highway code.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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 Post subject: Re: open and shut case??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 22:46 
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Ernest Marsh wrote:
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...so the limit would be 50mph


No idea if this is correct - but if it was, and the other vehicles were doing 40mph as reported, than Dyches planned overtake of more than one vehicle was not something that was going to happen quickly, and somebody indicating to pull out across the opposite carriageway could reasonably expect a vehicle approaching from behind to see their indication, and adjust their course accordingly.

Of course, if he were attempting a reckless foot to the floor passing manouvre, it is likely he was not watching the vehicles he was passing as much as the road ahead looking for oncoming traffic...


As I have already written on this thread, Denise Griffiths can't have been doing any more than 35mph to have contemplated pulling over on that patch of earth. Had she been doing 40, she would have had to do a harsh brake. It would be a pretty quick deceleration from 35mph as it is.

And as I've also written, from that point in the road, Dyche would have an excellent view ahead for quite some distance when he first started the overtaking procedure. It's not as if oncoming cars materialise out of thin air, is it?

Please do read what others have written. If you get the chance, please go and have a drive of that road, like some of us have over the years.


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 Post subject: Re: open and shut case??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 22:49 
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Ernest Marsh wrote:
... and somebody indicating to pull out across the opposite carriageway could reasonably expect a vehicle approaching from behind to see their indication, and adjust their course accordingly.


No. If car#1 pulled out when there's a vehicle approaching from behind, car#1's driver MUST pull back in, as otherwise they're about to cause an RTA. Evidently car#1's driver didn't bother to check their mirrors, did they?


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 Post subject: Re: open and shut case??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 22:51 
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graball wrote:
Firstly, I don't think that road is a 50MPH limit, it certainly wasn't when I was last on it 2 years back and it's not the sort of road that would "normally" get a 50MPH limit.


It is a B road, B4518, but yes, parts of it certainly could easily pass for a decent A road.


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 Post subject: Re: open and shut case??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 22:52 
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graball wrote:
Any competent driver wouldn't have to ask that question , they would know with certainty that they had seen the following cars, decided that they had no intention of overtaking, judged that they were a safe enough distance behind to start indicating and braking without danger of the following vehicle "rear-ending" them.Then check the opposite carriageway for cars approaching. Does it sound like she went through these checks to anyone?


Nope, sadly.


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 Post subject: Re: open and shut case??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 23:02 
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As I have already written on this thread, Denise Griffiths can't have been doing any more than 35mph to have contemplated pulling over on that patch of earth. Had she been doing 40, she would have had to do a harsh brake. It would be a pretty quick deceleration from 35mph as it is.


I must admit that taking into account the fact that she must have seen the dirt patch at the last moment and the compactness of it, I really do wonder if she would have stopped sucessfully on it, even without a nudge from behind.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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 Post subject: Re: open and shut case??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 23:05 
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It is a B road, B4518, but yes, parts of it certainly could easily pass for a decent A road.


Are all B roads in wales 50MPH now? They certainly aren't in England....thankfully...;-)

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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 Post subject: Re: open and shut case??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 23:21 
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graball wrote:
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As I have already written on this thread, Denise Griffiths can't have been doing any more than 35mph to have contemplated pulling over on that patch of earth. Had she been doing 40, she would have had to do a harsh brake. It would be a pretty quick deceleration from 35mph as it is.


I must admit that taking into account the fact that she must have seen the dirt patch at the last moment and the compactness of it, I really do wonder if she would have stopped sucessfully on it, even without a nudge from behind.


Put it this way, it's not a place I'd like to attempt to stop at, considering you've only got a flimsy wire fence separating you and a drop into the lake. I'd only turn into it at something like 10mph or less from the road, and certainly not try to slow down from 40 or even 35!


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