Safe Speed Forums

The campaign for genuine road safety
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 09:55

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 23:21 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 23:26
Posts: 9263
Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
Today ,Mrs B got a circular from our local Labour group. One point in it was that due to financial constraints, the county council was looking at switching off street lights from midnight to 05:30 am ,except in areas covered by CCTV. Possibly political ,but got me thinking. I've always been led to believe that the local :30: limits depended on an order where street lighting was in effect. No lit warning/street lights = no effective legal limit. Any one confirm this .

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 01:03 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:16
Posts: 7986
Location: Moved to London
botach wrote:
Today ,Mrs B got a circular from our local Labour group. One point in it was that due to financial constraints, the county council was looking at switching off street lights from midnight to 05:30 am ,except in areas covered by CCTV. Possibly political ,but got me thinking. I've always been led to believe that the local :30: limits depended on an order where street lighting was in effect. No lit warning/street lights = no effective legal limit. Any one confirm this .

What happens during hours of daylight ;)

Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984:
[81] It shall not be lawful for a person to drive a motor vehicle on a restricted road at a speed exceeding 30 miles per hour.
[82, 1] Subject to the provisions of this section and of section 84(3) of this Act, a road is a restricted road for the purposes of section 81 of this Act ...
[82, 1, a] In England and Wales, there is provided on it a system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than 200 yards apart;
[82, 1, b] in Scotland, there is provided on it a system of carriageway lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than 185 metres apart and the road is of a classification or type specified for the purposes of this subsection in regulations made by the Secretary of State.


The mere presence is the key factor, not their illumination. Granted unlit street lamps are more difficult to see during darkness ...

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 03:59 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 02:17
Posts: 7355
Location: Highlands
So if certain people (if so inclined) were to erect models of street lights, then motorists (if unaware of the false message) would have to assume that it was a 30mph. ;)

Seriously though if the lights fail the system of speed enforcement still applies. Replacing failed street lights has always been an awkward puzzle to solve.

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 16:17 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 23:26
Posts: 9263
Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
Thanks folks, next question , if the lights are switched off, there must be some provision for any entry sign into the restriction to be lit.

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:35 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 13:17
Posts: 67
Location: Dundee
botach wrote:
Thanks folks, next question , if the lights are switched off, there must be some provision for any entry sign into the restriction to be lit.


The signs only need to be lit if the street lighting is lit, otherwise, the signs only need to be reflectorised. So in this case, once the street lighting is switched off, the sign lighting could be switched off too (which would likely happen anyway as sign lighting is usually run from the same feed as the street lighting).

This is only for Trunk and Principal roads, other roads only require the signs to be reflectorised with no specific requirement for them to be lit at all.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 13:44 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 23:26
Posts: 9263
Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
Thanks for that, just wondering if some LA were about to shoot themselves in foot .

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 03:57 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 02:17
Posts: 7355
Location: Highlands
Dougman wrote:
botach wrote:
Thanks folks, next question , if the lights are switched off, there must be some provision for any entry sign into the restriction to be lit.


The signs only need to be lit if the street lighting is lit, otherwise, the signs only need to be reflectorised. So in this case, once the street lighting is switched off, the sign lighting could be switched off too (which would likely happen anyway as sign lighting is usually run from the same feed as the street lighting).

This is only for Trunk and Principal roads, other roads only require the signs to be reflectorised with no specific requirement for them to be lit at all.

Have you got any specific references to that please ? That's most interesting. :)

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:19 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 14:04
Posts: 2325
Location: The interweb
Steve wrote:
botach wrote:
Today ,Mrs B got a circular from our local Labour group. One point in it was that due to financial constraints, the county council was looking at switching off street lights from midnight to 05:30 am ,except in areas covered by CCTV. Possibly political ,but got me thinking. I've always been led to believe that the local :30: limits depended on an order where street lighting was in effect. No lit warning/street lights = no effective legal limit. Any one confirm this .

What happens during hours of daylight ;)


I thought part of the definition of a street light is that it operates during the "hours of darkness", if it gets turned off while it is dark then it ceases to qualify as a street light.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 15:20 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:16
Posts: 7986
Location: Moved to London
Homer wrote:
I thought part of the definition of a street light is that it operates during the "hours of darkness", if it gets turned off while it is dark then it ceases to qualify as a street light.

If we apply that logic, would a great many residential areas suddenly become NSL during daylight hours?

TBH, I think there is only 1 reasonable interpretation of the legislation I quoted: "furnished" - regardless of their state of illumination.

I would be interested to hear an explanation for a alternative and reasonable interpretation of that legislation.

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 21:06 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 23:26
Posts: 9263
Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
Steve wrote:
If we apply that logic, would a great many residential areas suddenly become NSL during daylight hours?

TBH, I think there is only 1 reasonable interpretation of the legislation I quoted: "furnished" - regardless of their state of illumination.
.


With Dougman's explanation of the lit reflective sign, seems to fit the bill .Seem to remember a lot of posts in past that have touched on this, hence the questions .
Thanks all .

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 23:04 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 13:17
Posts: 67
Location: Dundee
SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
Dougman wrote:
botach wrote:
Thanks folks, next question , if the lights are switched off, there must be some provision for any entry sign into the restriction to be lit.


The signs only need to be lit if the street lighting is lit, otherwise, the signs only need to be reflectorised. So in this case, once the street lighting is switched off, the sign lighting could be switched off too (which would likely happen anyway as sign lighting is usually run from the same feed as the street lighting).

This is only for Trunk and Principal roads, other roads only require the signs to be reflectorised with no specific requirement for them to be lit at all.

Have you got any specific references to that please ? That's most interesting. :)


Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3 here (2.5 M pdf) section 14.54 page 128. But the TSM is only an application guide to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions.

The actual legal gubbins is in the TSRGD Schedule 17 item 1 here

Hope that helps!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 02:11 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 14:04
Posts: 2325
Location: The interweb
Steve wrote:
Homer wrote:
I thought part of the definition of a street light is that it operates during the "hours of darkness", if it gets turned off while it is dark then it ceases to qualify as a street light.

If we apply that logic, would a great many residential areas suddenly become NSL during daylight hours?


How can daylight hours be hours of darkness????

To be a streetlight it has to light the street, at night, when it is dark. That is the definition someone posted on these forums some time ago.

If it does not light the street at night, when it is dark then it is not a streetlight. Daytime, when it is light is not relevant.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 14:36 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:16
Posts: 7986
Location: Moved to London
Homer wrote:
To be a streetlight it has to light the street, at night, when it is dark. That is the definition someone posted on these forums some time ago.

If it does not light the street at night, when it is dark then it is not a streetlight. Daytime, when it is light is not relevant.

I think there is an issue with the definition of "lamp".

It would make sense to me that a lamp is still a lamp even when off.
A vacuum cleaner is still a vacuum cleaner, even when it is off (it merely isn't cleaning).

Could you find that definition that you say was posted? My quick searched yielded nothing.

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 18:36 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 00:15
Posts: 5232
Location: Windermere
Homer wrote:
How can daylight hours be hours of darkness????

To be a streetlight it has to light the street, at night, when it is dark. That is the definition someone posted on these forums some time ago.

If it does not light the street at night, when it is dark then it is not a streetlight. Daytime, when it is light is not relevant.

As I understand it, the proposals are to switch the lights OFF after a certain time, so they will be illuminated during some hours of darkness, rather than ALL darkness.
As Steve pointed out, the street lights indicate a 30mph limit in daylight whie they are switched off, so this proposal does not significantly alter their status as an indicator of that limit.

However, it could be argued in some cases where lamps are far enough from the kerb as to be unseen in the head lamp illumination, that the limit was therefore not clearly obvious, and caused a driver to stray over the limit.

Even that should be unlikely, as the mere presence of streetlights is normally an indication of a hazard of some sort, which most drivers would be aware of, and driving at a reasonable and safe speed.

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 06:13 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 14:04
Posts: 2325
Location: The interweb
Steve wrote:
Homer wrote:
To be a streetlight it has to light the street, at night, when it is dark. That is the definition someone posted on these forums some time ago.



Could you find that definition that you say was posted? My quick searched yielded nothing.


All I can say so far is it was before December 2007, because I made reference to it back then. It is possible the discussion took place on Pepipoo but I remember it had something to do with a debate about a lighting system (somewhere in the Lake district IIRC) and if it was street lighting or pavement lighting.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:57 
Offline
User

Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 04:10
Posts: 3244
Which leads to the question: What about daylight ?
In any case, the relevant legislation says "street lights/lighting", not that they have to be working.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=62786

Edit.
On the other hand, there is this:

Quote:
On roads where there is an adequate system of lighting and the default speed limit of 30mph applies, repeater signs are not allowed. This means that the street lamps themselves act as signs to indicate the speed limit. Logically, therefore, the street lamps must be visible to drivers, ###day or night,### if they are to be aware that there is a 30mph speed limit. If it is not readily apparent that street lamps exists, for example in tree-lined roads where the lampposts cannot easily be seen, this may be a defence to a charge of exceeding the 30mph limit. We are not aware of any such cases having been contested on these grounds, so legal advice should be sought.


http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm

Lights not working. Road dark. Hard to tell if the lamps are there.

And then this:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SafeSpeedPR/message/44

_________________
The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 01:32 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 02:17
Posts: 7355
Location: Highlands
Homer wrote:
To be a streetlight it has to light the street, at night, when it is dark. That is the definition someone posted on these forums some time ago.

If it does not light the street at night, when it is dark then it is not a streetlight. Daytime, when it is light is not relevant.
Not really, it just has to be a pole within (have to double check) but within 200yds of each other. That is a pole that has a lamp, with a set distance, no reference that it has to be lit. After all if one was out, then that might make the whole street of lamps illegal, and so no speed limit might exist. I'd have to check the reference in the Highway code website ... add link later...
links:
Department for Transport wrote:
(Wiki)In August 2006, the Department for Transport issued new guidance relating to speed limits. It states that:[1]
Section 82(1)(a) (of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (RTRA 1984)) defines a restricted road in England and Wales as a road which is provided with “a system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than 200 yards apart”. Section 81 specifically makes it an offence for a person to drive a motor vehicle at a speed of more than 30 mph on a restricted road.

"Street lighting" is further defined as follows:
As set out in paragraph 45, it is generally recognised that a ‘system’ of street lighting could be three or more lamps spaced not more than 183 metres apart. However, street lighting (for the purposes of determining whether or not a road is a restricted) is not necessarily limited to street lamps, but may extend to lighting provided by authorities or parish councils.

To avoid confusion that could arise if some 30 mph zones were 'street-lit' and some were not, DfT guidance goes onto say:
Direction 11 of The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 (TSRGD 2002) defines the requirements for the placing of speed-limit repeater signs. This states that speed-limit repeater signs cannot be placed along a road on which there is carriageway lighting not more than 183 metres apart and which is subject to a 30 mph speed limit. The Department will not make exceptions to this rule.

This leads to the conclusion that:
This means it should be assumed that, unless an order has been made and the road is signed to the contrary, a 30 mph speed limit applies where there are three or more lamps throwing light on the carriageway and placed not more than 183 metres apart.


A limit of 30 miles per hour (mph) or 48 kilometres per hour (km/h) usually applies to all traffic on all roads with street lighting. This applies unless you see signs showing otherwise.

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 19:38 
Offline
User

Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 04:10
Posts: 3244
That is very well if the road is noticeably lined with street lamps.
If they are not on and are, for instance, submerged in trees, then it may well be incorrect.
In any case, MANY speed limit signs do not comply to regulations (as well as bus lane signage) and the councils seem very uninterested.
It is what you get with arrogant public service institutions that just do not care.

_________________
The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 23:22 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 23:26
Posts: 9263
Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
Wow, seems that I stirred up a hornets nest on this one. My own personal opinion is that LA would like to have their cake and eat it. If the local :30: limits depend on lit areas not needing signs/repeaters to make them legal when lights are on ,then the absence of lights must make the need for a lit :30: sign/repeaters a legal requirement . But then it's not about road safety/advising the motorist ,is it . It's all about profit .

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:09 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 13:17
Posts: 67
Location: Dundee
Here's the extract from the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions, Schedule 17, Item 10 regarding signs to diagram 670, 671, 672 and 673 (which are speed limit roundels, NSL roundels, minimum speed signs and end of minimum speed signs respectively)

(1) Where the sign is a terminal sign and is erected on a trunk or principal road within 50 metres of a street lamp lit by electricity, it shall throughout the hours of darkness -

(a) be continuously illuminated by means of internal or external lighting and may also be reflectorised; or

(b) while the street lamp is lit, be continuously illuminated by means of external lighting and shall also be reflectorised.

My bold added.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.027s | 15 Queries | GZIP : Off ]