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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 18:44 
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weepej wrote:
The cyclist was in the correct lane, the bus wasn't.

The bus cut the cyclist up, how hard can it be!?

The bus driver indicated his intention well before moving across, and started to move across when there was still an adequate gap (~7 meters) in front of the cyclist.
Edit: This is proven within my next post.

Weepej,
in that situation do you: expect the bus, with passengers, to come to a complete halt and yield to the one cyclist, even though the bus was already quite some way ahead ?

Weepej wrote:
... the bus wasn't.

Weepej, what does the green arrow (in the link) point to?
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=51.4592 ... 1&t=h&z=20

The more we dig, the more it can be shown how the cyclist wasn't blameless in the lead up to the attack and that the bus driver didn't do anything unreasonable (again in the lead up), more so given the proximity of the red car to its right.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 19:44 
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And a cyclist who seems to be approaching from a "left turn only" lane at that.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 21:19 
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Attachment:
gavin_hill_and_cyclist_preb.jpg [50.95 KiB]
Downloaded 202 times

In that frame, where the bus is clearly seen indicating, there is about 7 meters (along the ground as a reference) between the rear panel of the bus and the front of the front wheel of the bike, in the direction of their travel.

Attachment:
gavin_hill_and_cyclist_pre2.jpg
gavin_hill_and_cyclist_pre2.jpg [ 65.68 KiB | Viewed 10622 times ]

That distance is more than enough for the cyclist to make a reasonable judgement, more so when considering the significance of that green arrow.

(Graball, my workings suggest the cyclist came from a "straight on" lane).

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 02:59 
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Whether the cyclist was in lane 1 (L turn lane) or L2 and I think he may have been simply straightening his line (and through the green light), but why he then tried to speed up (as I believe that he did) and chose to go to the right side of the bus, and into a closing gap is extremely foolhardy. If this was a mistake or a bad decision in the heat of the moment, then is was a big one.
Even just from the footage, one can clearly see that he had ample time to move to the left (n/side) of the bus, and take the best line. The buses intentions are perfectly clear and backed up with the indicator.

I wonder if there is any CCTV prior to the 'Marlborough Street' collision?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 15:32 
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There's more.

See this footage (Yahoo), from 30 seconds onwards.
The cyclist begins to cycle away at 37 seconds (after blocking the bus, propping his bike on it and "flipping the wiper") adopting "primary position" - which would inescapably be construed as "hogging the lane" (for what would have been over 25 seconds to the lights), until 48 seconds when the bus catches and starts to pull into the right lane. At 50 seconds the bus had moved into L2, possibly to simply pass the antagonistic cyclist, and at that point the cyclist suddenly decides to strongly swerve towards L2 without any warning whatsoever.

If the cyclist was genuinely adopting primary position (or simply going to turn right), then he had 13 seconds to do it properly and safely; there is no need to have done that: late, suddenly and without warning.

Nah, that's pure needless antagonism!
The cyclist was (continuing to) deliberately frustrating the bus driver.

It would not be surprising if it was at that moment, when the driver realised that the cyclist was continuing to deliberately block, that the driver lost it.

The more I dig, the greater the case against the cyclist.
However, this still doesn't excuse the attack at 53 seconds.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 21:48 
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It is interesting that we can finally get to see a little of the 'bus/cyclist' altercation.
I agree it was antagonistic. As the bus pulls off he is possibly thinking about the damage to the bus by this chap. There was no reason to cause any damage to the bus. Perhaps that thought and the cyclists deliberate action towards the 'right turn lane', antagonised the driver enough to finally react, and once you cause another to reach that point the gloves are potentially off as they were here. It was an awful thing to do, but it is sad to see too that the cyclist has a lot to answer for too.

Does anyone know whether the bus needed to take the right ?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 02:47 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
Does anyone know whether the bus needed to take the right ?

I can't find any useful info (apart from the bus company being called Bugler Coaches).

I would also be very interested to know if the cyclist needed to turn right. The most I can glean from various articles is that he was pedalling "four miles to work in central Bristol".

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 13:46 
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Cyclist is more than a simple commuter by the look of this picture in the Daily Mail...

Image

Perhaps his competitive spirit caused him to want to beat the bus to the exit?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 20:03 
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Added to that is that "cyclists are often reluctant to slow down if they (we) can avoid it" (link).
Given the cyclist chose to totally close what was a sizeable gap, I think this is further indication of the selfishness/competitiveness of that cyclist.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 21:23 
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well this is taking a somewhat worrying direction.. which i'm not entirely convinced of the relevance of :scratchchin:


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 21:52 
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If I'm honest ed, I started out thinking the driver deserved to be hung, drawn and quartered.

But after reading all this and getting a clearer picture, now I'm thinking, and I hope, the cyclist also got an ear-full along the lines of "yes the driver shouldn't have done that and he deserves to do time but you were a similar sort of arse!".

Just because the cyclist came off worse doesn't mean he wasn't an aggressive, inconsiderate road user on a bike.

I come across situations all the time on our roads where I have been wronged. I just don't react the way the driver did and I'm not so stupid or arrogant to think I own the road like the cyclist seemed to think he did.

I give credit to the judge for making a good call in this now..

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 22:53 
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Ed,

Big Tone wrote:
I give credit to the judge for making a good call in this now..

Seconded.

When I first saw the violence of the driver in the video, I initially thought too myself "Only 17 months? This is a bike forced under a bus with intent FFS!"

I could not find any case summaries to explain why the sentence was unexpectedly short.
After sifting through and analysing everything that I have, I can now appreciate that on balance, a defence of mitigation might have accepted based on ignorant selfishness and protracted antagonism: the banging on windows, the wrongful accusation, the deliberate obstruction, the disorderly behaviour, more deliberate obstruction (needless primary positioning) and finally pure spite (that swerve).

I am saying all this in a response to a certain poster's claim that the cyclist hadn't done anything wrong, where it is now painfully clear that the driver had actually acted reasonably (zip merged) given his constraints (the bus lane), that the cyclists expectations were selfish, as well as speculating the reasons of the bad behaviour of the cyclist (closing the gap) justified by previous reasoning from other cyclists.
I don't believe that is unreasonable - afterall, this is a forum ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 23:10 
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ed_m wrote:
well this is taking a somewhat worrying direction.. which i'm not entirely convinced of the relevance of :scratchchin:

Worrying in so much as the cyclist received an appalling case of road rage, but that it was one that he might have avoided had he given courtesy and consideration ?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 23:14 
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ed_m wrote:
well this is taking a somewhat worrying direction.. which i'm not entirely convinced of the relevance of :scratchchin:

I was simply trying to understand why the cyclist ignored the clear intent of the bus and tried so hard to gain position from so far back.

His abilities look beyond the average commuter cyclist - perhaps he thought he COULD beat the bus?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 23:17 
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Steve wrote:
Big Tone wrote:
I give credit to the judge for making a good call in this now..

Seconded.
ditto

Steve wrote:
... I can now appreciate that on balance, a defence of mitigation might have accepted based on ignorant selfishness and protracted antagonism: the banging on windows, the wrongful accusation, the deliberate obstruction, the disorderly behaviour, more deliberate obstruction (needless primary positioning) and finally pure spite (that swerve).
Whilst I still believe that the actions of the bus driver were absolutely wrong on every level this cyclist was very wrong too for all the above reasons so accurately summed up.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 23:31 
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Ernest Marsh wrote:
I was simply trying to understand why the cyclist ignored the clear intent of the bus and tried so hard to gain position from so far back.

His abilities look beyond the average commuter cyclist - perhaps he thought he COULD beat the bus?
As he is (looking very closely at the first video clip) he is coasting. So his line is potentially obstructed by the bus and the car (so what might he gain?), so if he were to pedal to power through and perhaps make the next set of lights, and hence his most direct line (perhaps) the bus might have been 'in his way', BUT this roundabout is not a racetrack ... it is public highway.

What we haven't seen is the bit between the two videos and we have no idea what occurred then.
I have no objection to race bikes on the road nor what people wear when they ride, this is purely about how people ride and drive.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 09:34 
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I'm in agreement that the initial incident at the roundabout would have been ill considered on any mode of transport, and the sensible option would be to back off and drop in behind. Depending on the individual you may/may not have felt a little agrieved to have had to do so, and moved on.
I still feel that the bus gate & road layout may play some part here and I don't know what a sensible solution to this kind of traffic segregation & reintegration at the junction is.

Obviously the subsequent verbal run in with the bus driver is a straight road rage incident, again not a great idea whatever your mode of transport.

In the final incident it's clear neither party were thinking straight, it's unfortunate that the bus driver crossed the line in the way that he did and right that he faced the consequences.

What is alarming me is what appears to be the subsequent and ongoing character assasination of the cyclist, poor judgement, discourteous behaviour & road rage are issues with all road users and shouldn't be linked (to my mind) to any particular mode of transport, lycra wearing or what you choose to do on the weekend.
(Although I take Ernest's point about the speed differential and rate of catching the bus, depending on the terrain and layout i'm sure plenty of average commuters could get a good enough run up to close down a bus in an urban environment! Doesn't exactly score much kudos here).

If I've missed this in the thread my apologies, what are we actually charging the rider with ?
In the last video I see some pretty silly riding (although I may well be in primary there if I felt in danger of an ill advised overtake) but nothing beyond what I observe and mitigate for on a daily basis in other cyclists/motorbikes/cars/buses. In the first video unless he's going over a red light I don't think being in the wrong lane (like the red car?) is an offence.
So we're left with the bit in the middle we don't know much about, is shouting at each other an offence ? what offence is "flicking" a wiper blade ?

E.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:46 
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I think it, (this case), has been a classic example of things aren’t always what they first appear. I don’t think it’s all that much to do with the transport per sa, (bear with me), but a personality clash. Yes, the driver had the advantage, so to speak, but if the roles had been reversed in that situation it may well be that the man cycling would have exacted a similar revenge attack instead. Did that makes sense?

To put it a different way, if the cyclist had a gun or baseball bat and the ability to catch and attack the driver during or afterwards, who’s to say he wouldn’t have started shooting or beating the driver over his head, or just punch his head off to a charge of GBH? They were clearly both incensed so I don’t think it’s a great leap to consider the non-factual angle. (Maybe I should write for the Daily Mail :D ).

I have had abuse from a fellow cyclist the once. I was riding along minding my own business towards Clent Hills on my mountain bike when a cycling mob came up behind me like a swarm of wasps. The one voice rang out behind me “you’re slowing down the peloton!” I thought to myself “This is as much my road too you know; fec off!” :x The one wolf in the pack, deliberately or not, nudged my arm as he went by. (I think it was you ed :lol: ).

Seriously, I’m just trying to say that it’s not ‘anti-cyclist’ to point out they are not all whiter than white, as indeed the guy in this incident wasn’t, and I speak as a devoted cyclist who should be out on it now on this lovely day.

Add: To be clear I am not, for one second, condoning the driver's action! :x

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 16:35 
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What is alarming me is what appears to be the subsequent and ongoing character assasination of the cyclist, poor judgement, discourteous behaviour & road rage are issues with all road users and shouldn't be linked (to my mind) to any particular mode of transport, lycra wearing or what you choose to do on the weekend.


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...what offence is "flicking" a wiper blade ?

To take up Tone's point, reverse the roles. Suppose the bus driver had been affronted by being cut off by the cyclist, stopped the bus, obstructed the cyclist's path so he couldn't go anywhere, got out and "tweaked" a part of the bike? What do you suppose the reaction of the cyclist would have been?

The comments in this thread are not "character assassination" of the cyclist but instead just apportioning responsibility for the incident in a similar way that the judge seems to have done.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 17:20 
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malcolmw wrote:
Suppose the bus driver had been affronted by being cut off by the cyclist, stopped the bus, obstructed the cyclist's path so he couldn't go anywhere, got out and "tweaked" a part of the bike? What do you suppose the reaction of the cyclist would have been?


How do you suppose the cyclist might have attempted to run the bus off the road?


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