Safe Speed Forums

Driving home from Staveley to Windermere last night was an arduous task of around an hour and fifteen minutes! It should take about 6 to 10 minutes!!

The cause?
Well the snow was not a problem for me - it was worse at Ings than it had been at Staveley - so when I encountered near stationary traffic, I pulled over into the filling station and slipped into my snow socks... those special fabric covers that fit over your tyres with an elasticated fitment.

While I was there, a gritter came through - and the queue soon started to diminish slightly.
But the gritter could not grit where the queue blocked the road, so it gritted the centre and opposing lane.

As I slowly followed the queue along the road, we encountered several vehicles stuck in the nearside gutter, seemingly unable to make progress. Given they were on a slight incline, and the snow was deeper at the margins, it was to be expected - but why did they go there? Probably to avoid the gritter!

However, what that was nothing to the problem up from Blackmoss, a turning a mile on from Ings!
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=A591+bannerigg&hl=en&ll=54.380657,-2.875929&spn=0.027143,0.084543&num=50&safe=off&hq=A591+bannerigg&radius=15000&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=54.38065,-2.876028&panoid=RykAWfZW3KH9nP-OpNwhlA&cbp=12,276.3,,0,3.84
Several vehicles were stopped at various angles to the road, and a few drivers were trying to pass them to the right - but as they did so slowly on the incline, other drivers with more traction passed THEM - only to encounter some of the few oncoming vehicles head on!
Some of the drivers caught in the middle of the road then had trouble setting off on the slope - and nobody was slowing to let them get going again.

The vehicle in front of me thoughtfully chose to pull up while the vehicles ahead sorted themselves out - quite sensibly on the start of the level section just above Blackmoss turning.
I pulled up behind, but after a few moments, a set of lights came up behind slowly, with the obvious intention of passing us, and adding further to the chaos above us!

I pulled out at 45°, blocking the progress, and got out to question the driver.
I pointed out to him that we were not stuck, that we were waiting, giving room for the stuck cars to get going - from a difficulty caused by vehicles driving towards oncoming vehicles!
His response was "This is a 4x4 - it has enough grip to get past!".

Words fail me! Why oh why do some drivers feel it is acceptable to drive up to the front of a queue to ADD to the trouble which is causing the queue?
When I eventually got close enough, I turned into the Heaning and Mislet lane, and drove across the common, exiting back onto the A591 on the far side of Bannerigg.
There was no traffic coming from Kendal - but traffic going TO Kendal was stationary - held up by the log jam of Windermere bound traffic which was attempting to use the whole of the road width at the top of Bannerigg on the Kendal side!

Today when I went to Kendal, there were about a dozen vehicles still abandoned on the road in various places - many of them on Bannerigg. Several of them were still there at lunch time, despite the road being easily navigated by then.

I noticed that many of the drivers that were stuck, were simply spinning their wheels - at quite high speeds - and they didn't all have the wheels pointing in the direction they were trying to go, having lost touch with any knowledge of their steering lock!
Those few who looked as though they might get going, were being hindered by drivers stopping or passing close by.
My own experience showed that when you tried to give these drivers the space they needed - some were going forwards, but slipping sideways too - too many other drivers were simply not aware enough or patient enough to give them a little time and space.

So WHY are so many drivers inept when it comes to snow?
I blame driving schools, whose only criteria for success is how many pupils they get to PASS the test, whether or not they can drive to an acceptable standard.

Meanwhile, I cannot recommend enough, a pair of snow socks for your car.
They are quick to install, quick to take off, and unlike chains, do not interfere with the numerous sensors around the wheels of most modern cars, and do not need to be adjusted.
Mine were £40 on ebay - and there are videos on YouTube showing how easy they are to fit.

I hope we do not see icy roads blamed for any accidents tomorrow morning. The clues are there - melted snow, low temperatures, deep ruts which may be frozen and just to be sure - the weather forecast on radio, internet and TV - it might even be on smart phone app too - but my experience has been that people that rely on apps should be wrapped carfefully in cotton wool, and placed in a safe space of their own...!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I just looked up those snow sox on eBay and they have a problem. A problem that epitomises why snow often causes such chaos in England. We don't usually have enough of it! Those snow sox will be damaged by driving on bare tarmac. Now I can't remember a single journey last winter that was done entirely on snow covered roads. Parts of the network are cleared, other parts aren't. So it is rarely practical to use devices such as chains, sox, studded tyres because they would have to be changed several times in a journey.

And your criticism of driving schools is ridiculous. Try setting up as a driving instructor with the slogan "We have a lousy pass rate but our pupils drive on snow and ice like Timo Mäkinen". I don't think you would get rich. Especially when 98% of you tutition would be done on snow free roads.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Round here the snow was only very light. The main problems have nothing to do with poor driving conditions but everything to do with Idle B'stards who chose to leave their cars parked down both sides of the road because they cannot face the prospect of having to shoval a couple of inches of snow off a couple of square yards of driveway!

This

1) Prevents effective gritting/snowploughing.
2) Creates stop/start driving conditions (IE conditions that make people getting stuck more likly)
3) Narrows the road to such an extent that if anybody DOES get stuck, nobody can go anywhere

Added to which we have people driving along main roads totally failing to appreciate that people emerging from uncleared side roads and driveways may well have difficulty doing so and may stop unexpectedly while halfway out or take longer than expeced to do so!

Also, Just because a 4X4 can procede better in poor conditions doesnt mean that it can stop any better! Flying along an icy or snowbound road at 40 MPH is insane! (I have a 4x4 myself, so I am not having a go at 4x4's generally, Just those owners who do not understand how they actually work!)

Rant over,.... for now!

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

The advantage of snow socks is that they are so easy to put on and take off that once you find a road that is cleared down to tarmac, you simply pull up and two minutes later are on your way - unlike chains.
60 seconds if the wife is in the driving seat while you pull them off!

You can drive on tarmac with them as long as you make no violent changes in direction at any speed, or brake carefully - for instance crossing a cleared main road from a side road.

For patchy snow, look for the snow at the margins and drive in it - helping break up the ruts as you go!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Do you fit them on all four wheels or just the driving wheel?

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

but then , I had an old mentor in Rhodesia who when someone said " I've got a Land Rover,so I've got no problems with the wet season " would reply "the trick is not in knowing where you can go, but in knowing where you CAN'T" .
Similar to the problem faced by drivers on snow/ice boun roads .But too often I find that the minute a snow flake descends most townies panic and forget that to get up a hill you need grip + forward momentum . (and a lot of respect/advanced perception for stopping distances) . I often wonder if in the rush to get driving standards to a DSA standard , a lot of old fashioned driving standards hav gotten lost . I watched one car in a supermart car park when it lost traction -to see driver apply more power to get moving .
We had approx 4" on saturday night and I personally had no problems ,despite finding a lot of roads shined by spinning -al it takes is a light hand on the wheel ,and light feet on the pedals.
It's not magic - just common sense .

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

They probably forget that momentum is always conserved.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

From the areas they come from I wonder if
1) they know the dictionary definition of "momentum"
2) they know what a dictionary is
Not exactly require for a chav driving test ,ne'st pas

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

What I find amazing about this particular scenario is the amount of smoke that you get when people do this! But then, All that power has to go somewhere.....

Reminds me may years ago when I failed to get up a hill on an icy road. I had to back down it again (along with all the people behind me! )

Well...

The problem is if you apply the foot brake on ice while reversing down hill, you lose the front wheels first! So you cannot steer! I quickly twigged that what you had to do was use the handbrake to control speed so that you could still use the front wheels to control direction. (I also had to get out and tell the people behind me to do this since they haddn't twigged it)

Now.

How in Gods name could one do this on a modern (and much improved, of course ) car with an electric handbrake!?!

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

Just the driving wheels for front wheel drive.
I believe that rear wheel drives are recommended to fit them to all four to maintain steering AND drive... but if you have an M3, I guess you can afford the extra cash!

I have used chains in the past, and they were so much trouble to fit, that like most users, I was reluctant to have to take them off (although to be fair, I only bothered to put them ON, if they were likely to need to stay on).
While the snow socks are not as robust, they will get you home, and if used with a degree of care, WILL last you - I have used mine for three winters now, and paid £40 on ebay - if they tore up tomorrow I would still think them good value.

My current mount has so many wheel sensors, and such small clearance around the wheel, that I would need sophisticated snow chains at around £120.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

...and that is where experience plays a part!

Without enough bad weather, drivers become lackadaisical and careless.

You CAN practice launching your vehicle up a slope, with enough momentum to get to the top and no further in the dry or wet - but who either has enough time or space to be bothered these days?

DO IT - it will pay off in all manner of ways, and will even help with fuel economy - as does riding a bicycle - it teaches you how to conserve and use energy in the form of momentum.

When my eldest son was learning to drive in thick snow last year, my first instruction was NEVER to arrive at a brow or bend with more speed than you could wipe off without relying on the brakes... and make sure you can see as far ahead as possible by choosing an appropriate line through bends.
If necessary, STOP on the brow before proceeding - and use the brake lights to signal your intentions to drivers behind, even if you are not intending to brake!
DON'T pressure the driver in front by driving too close or the CONDITIONS.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I think they usually just leave the ABS / traction control to sort it out - usually works for me!

... and if they have forgotten or need to know what it means then we have a great explanation of it !

Experience is key and training on skid pans to learn the art, is crucial.
If you have never skidded or lost control or traction then when it happens it can be very scary so people panic and forget to think.

Imagine if the 4x4 chap has told you (Earnest) that he was only passing to help people ! Think I would have planted that suggestion !
It does sound like chaos and sad that people seem so very unaware. However even knowing about skidding and car control, can still leave you stuck, although usually a few shovels (or many)of snow 'later', a hessian sack, &/or grip mat later, and most, can work their way free.
Incidentally many lowered suspension cars are unlikely to have enough clearance for (even) a sock! Rope can work but fixing it in place, can be very hard, just easiest to dig out and use other things to obtain grip.

I have had a few 'runs' in total snow and extremely think ice sheet underlying it, and that requires a very high concentration level. Chains would have been perfect for that trip but it was a rare occurrence. Most of the time it is snowy for a mile or so then clear, then another snow patch etc., but stopping to apply chains or socks would just cause mayhem, esp if you stop at the top of a hill, as those following will become stuck behind you. Plus in those conditions bending down around your car, you are in a very vulnerable position just at a time when others might be more likely to crash into you. On quiet roads it could be possible and safe, but I'd still be concerned, at the minute or two taking to apply the socks or chains, unless there is a layby or good off road stopping place (of course)!

When you put on a snow sock, do you place most of it on then roll forwards to apply the last section, or as you drive off and the last bit just springs into place automatically ?

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Take a look on YouTube... or this video from the Jaguar website:
http://www.jaguar.com/gb/en/videos/snow_sock

One thing I would point out, is that if the wheel arch is full of snow, it pays to rake it out first!
Also the gloves provided allow you to feel behind the wheel and ensure the elastic is sat properly - but they are really cold!
After practice, you won't need the extra feel, and can use decent gloves!

It is also much easier if you have a driver in the driving seat while you fit them, as on front wheel drive, you can steer left and right to reveal more of the tyre, and roll forward the short distance required to fully fit the sock.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Just while we're on this subject, remember that aerosol "Tyre Grip" product that was mentioned a year or two back on these fora? Well, if anyone was thinking of buying it, don't bother! I got a couple of cans and tried them last winter. Couldn't really detect any appreciable difference in traction!

When I learned to drive in the 50s I was taught by my uncle, a bus driver. His best and most lasting advice was to pretend there were fresh eggs on the pedals and steering wheel. Passed my test first time, in heavy snow, in 1958.

Fast forward to the 60's - where I got the same advice-after passing my test ,on how to drive in snow /ice - seems to have been forgotten by the speed freaks mob .

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

I have been amazed at the amount of damage that can be caused by accumulations of snow in the wheel arches! I have seen cars with practicaly the entire front ends ripped off because snow wedges have broken off and been dragged round by the wheels! One really might have thought that the designers might have anticipated this sort of thing (Again, it seems to be a recent thing, I dont remember this sort of thing happening in the past)



But would it??

We are talking about allowing the car to roll back under gravity very slowly (at half walking speed or a lot less) with first gear engaged but clutch down, on an extemely slippery surface!

Though I have not tried this myself using an ABS/TC/Electric Handbrake system I do remember seeing one of the motoring programes where the presenter was attempting to reverse paralel park facing up hill using one of these vehicles and he couldnt do it and ended up crashing into one of the parked cars! (And this was not on an icy road)

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

Yes, I think so (within the laws of physics, obviously)! I've been in the opposite situation, facing down a sleep and uber-slippy slope. The trick is to make sure all the wheels are turning before applying the footbrake. I did that, and it just went slowly down the slope with the brake pedal kicking back at me. It was too slippy to hold the car stationary, but at least it did the best it could with the brake on each wheel and didn't run away. I eventually stopped it by steering into the deeper snow / grass at the side of the road, (which then left me pretty stuck)! I eventually managed to reverse out with a bit of a push and some grit under the driving wheels.

These people:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MPRmOUxRMY

weren't so lucky! I don't know whether the car didn't have ABS, or whether they didn't give the wheels a chance to start turning again. Obviously, if the car is moving with all 4 wheels locked, the ABS doesn't know its moving and won't release the pressure at the "locked" wheel cylinder(s). I think the driver might have also applied the handbrake, because at one point, the front wheels turn briefly, but the backs don't.

It's certainly true (on my current car, at least), that the electric handbrake can't be applied lightly. It's a "parking brake" and it's either "on" or "off". (actually, it has two settings, but both will lock the wheels under the circumstances you describe). That said, I'm not sure how a manual handbrake could ever be better than an ABS system because it can't alter the braking effort on just one wheel, it applies both equally.