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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 08:31 
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Dorset "Safety" Camera Partnership wrote:
News article - The day I hit a child at 20mph – and realised the speed limit must be cut

In an impassioned appeal, Dr Nick Foreman remembers the near-fatal accident that convinced him of the need to stop motorists driving at 30mph in built-up areas

This is what happens and this is how it feels. I was driving along a well-lit suburban street with my two small stepchildren in the back of the car. We were on the way to pick up my wife who had been working away for a few days, and we were all excited about seeing her. It was 6.35pm on a dark February evening and I had some rather gloomy Radiohead music on the CD player.

In an instant, a few yards in front of me was a small child. He was followed by an adult. I remember thinking "WHAT THE..." and then reflexively hit my brakes. The car skidded and I ran into both of them. The child flew through the air, caught in the beam of my headlights. I didn't see the adult.

Traffic stopped behind me and on the other side of the road ahead of me. For a few seconds everything was still. The child, who looked about three years old, was crying in a heap a few yards in front of my car; the adult had been thrown further.

I stopped thinking normally. I had no idea what to do. It was probably only 30 seconds after the accident and already a crowd was appearing. I realised that I needed to phone the emergency services and I went back to my car and got my phone. I couldn't bring myself to address my children in the back seat.

Ringing 999 seemed to takes ages. There was a dislocation between the absolute panic now enveloping me and the calm voice on the other end. I grabbed a bystander to ask where we were. By this point, a large number of people had gathered.

My victims were clearly local with lots of family and friends in the vicinity. They surrounded the bodies lying on the road and after a few false starts at trying to be a doctor, I gave up. I felt incompetent and could only think that I had done this.

It started to become clearer what had happened. The child had got out of a car in a side street and had run towards the main road; his aunt had screamed and run after him. Both had run into my path.

Somebody tapped me on the shoulder. "Are you all right, mate? I saw everything. The kid ran out in front of you – there was nothing you could have done." These were very kind words. I remembered my children. I put my head back into the car – both were crying. I said everything was going to be fine, but I had no idea whether this was the truth.

On the road, nothing had changed. I rang my wife, incoherent. "Something awful has happened..." She was calm. She established where I was and said she'd be there shortly in a taxi. The traffic was backed up on either side of the car. It must have been about seven or eight minutes after the accident when an off-duty paramedic appeared and took control.

After a further five minutes or so the police arrived – lots of them. I was identified as the driver and was told to switch off my engine and sit in my car. Then a rapid-response team arrived in an ambulance car and another five minutes after that, thank God, an ambulance. I heard them apologise for being so long.

The policemen were very young. They were polite but firm and they started to appeal for witnesses, whom they began to interview as the ambulance men got out stretchers to carefully move the bodies.

A man tapped on my car window. I got out. He said he was the child's father. He asked me how I was and said he thought his son was going to be OK. A paramedic then came over. He told me not to be frightened about the stretchers, he didn't think there had been any major injuries.

The ambulance then sped off and a police sergeant appeared. He was less friendly and spent a long time inspecting my car. He ordered the young policemen to chalk the road, to show the position of my car.

My wife appeared, walking along the road with her luggage. The sergeant then allowed the car to be moved and one of the young policemen said he would take me home later. My wife drove the children home.

The police then explained that I would need to accompany them to the police station. They asked me if I had been intimidated by the crowd – I hadn't. The police were now friendly and sympathetic. The witnesses corroborated my story.

The ride in the police car was short and the police station was cold. I couldn't stop shaking. The Breathalyser test was carefully explained and I passed it. I was led through my witness statement by one policeman as another checked my car insurance and tax on their databases.

I was then told that no action would be taken against me and I was taken home by one of the young policemen. He told me to ring him if I needed to talk. He rang me a day or two later and told me that the aunt and the child had no broken bones and were both at home nursing some bruising.

The aunt wanted to talk to me and he asked whether he could give her my phone number. She rang me a few minutes later to tell me that she and her nephew were both well and to thank me for not driving fast. I told her that it was brave of her to try to save the child, and she laughed.

So what has this experience done to me? Suddenly, a few speeding points on my licence don't seem quite so innocent. If you have any, you should also feel ashamed. It is easy to exceed the speed limit and, thankfully, on this occasion, I wasn't. Nor was I fiddling with my mobile phone, sat-nav, or CD player, all of which I have done before.

I think I was going at 20mph at the point of impact, and maybe now you will agree with me that that should be the speed limit in built-up areas.

Dr Nick Foreman is a GP from Rickmansworth, Hertfordshire. This article is published in this week's British Medical Journal


Funny how two people can draw such different conclusions from the same story.

Doc's conclusion is "Speeding kills, I was doing 20 and couldn't avoid a child, so this is what the urban speed limit should be".

Johnny's conclusion is "Even if the speed limit was 20, the child would still have been hit. Maybe we need to focus our efforts on preventing the collision rather than assuming it's unavoidable and trying to mitigate its effects."


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 09:20 
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It is interesting 'how' this is written, so information is detailed and some confusing. There are words used to gain sympathy yet others harsh to gain effect like 'bodies', who refers to people who are alive as 'bodies' ?

Had he being paying attention and concentrating on his driving he would have recognised that IF a child ran out in 'this area' then he may need to stop. However if a child chooses to run out and the adult tries an attempt of rescue then that risk is great indeed.
I agree there are many places where I choose just a few miles and hour is appropriate for conditions.
I do agree that a child choosing to run out is highly likely to be injured at nearly any speed, how much will depend on many factors, some of which are difficult to predict no matter how good or how carefully you may travel. The speed will never manage to 'make it safe' just because someone sets a particular limit, his story fails to prove why or how or even if 20mph would have prevented the accident.
To imply road safety fact from a single story is highly dangerous.
Dr Nick Foreman wrote:
....after a few false starts at trying to be a doctor
, when in shock he should have known that it was stupid to attempt to try and act professionally too ! (What type of a doctor too?) But now we are meant to believe that he can be a road safety engineer or 'expert' ? That he has a 'golden egg' to road safety, that no one else has thought of? How arrogant especially with no facts or figures or engineering to back him up.
Is this not like an architect deciding how to medicate a sick child ?
This is highly charged with one's persons emotional thoughts, contains little fact other than a few after the event facts of one specific incident. Hardly cause to alter road safety or rules and regulations.
Case unproven - where are any facts other than as a driver to pay better attention to conditions & having much better awareness would have got him. What might he have achieved better with 20mph ?
Another propaganda story.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 09:24 
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Or dcb's third way - "Do all we can to prevent accidents but also attempt to mitigate the consequences of those that, man being fallible, do still occur "
All the best safety policies require that more than one measure is applied so that a single mistake is never disastrous.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:11 
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Let’s get this right:
Because he “thinks” he was doing 20, all the limits everywhere must be 20?
What if he was doing 10mph and the child went under his wheel? Would he then call for the return of the ‘red flag’ act?
Would his calling for a jaywalking law be more effective in such cases?
Is a “near-fatal accident” one which results with “she and her nephew were both well … at home nursing some bruising”?

The child (and hence adult) ran out into the path of the car – was the guardian responsible? Does that child normally run into the road? How were the headlamps not seen?

Nick Foreman wrote:
The child had got out of a car in a side street and had run towards the main road; his aunt had screamed and run after him. Both had run into my path.

On what road did the collision occur: on the “side street” or on the “main road”?
If on the side street: what was his impact speed? Did he fail to anticipate or react in time? Should the door opening / door being wide open / child disembarking have given him a bit of a clue? A child doesn’t do all of those actions “ in an instant”.
If on the main road: is he really calling for blanket reductions to 20 on “main roads”? :shock:

Either way, something isn't entirely right with his argument.

Nick Foreman wrote:
a few speeding points on my licence don't seem quite so innocent. If you have any, you should also feel ashamed.

Do kids normally run out into the carriageway on a motorway? (where most of the non-compliance occurs)
Not all points are given from speed offences in built-up areas.

He should be ashamed for making such a stupid comment!


Johnnytheboy wrote:
Dorset "Safety" Camera Partnership wrote:
News article - The day I hit a child at 20mph – and realised the speed limit must be cut

Did the SCP really publish that? If so it would explain a lot....

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 13:47 
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If he was in an environment where hazards could appear "in an instant" then clearly either 20mph was not a Safe Speed, or his observation was such that he was failing to anticipate potential hazards early enough, or both! Reading between the lines, two young children in the car, a dark winter's evening, and running the CD player, it would not be hard to imagine that his attention was a greater factor here than his speed. Is his one anecdotal experience enough to justify his opinion about limit setting, or is it just another emotional response, from one intimately involved, a la Brake? In this isolated incident one could also argue that if he had been going 30mph the collision would never have happened as he would have been past the point where the child ran out at the time it did!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 15:40 
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Steve wrote:
Let’s get this right. Did the SCP really publish that? If so it would explain a lot....


It was originally published in The Independent a couple of weeks ago. I did consider drawing to the attention of the forum at the time but decided that it was essentially catharsis for the author and offered no real insight into road safety.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 15:49 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
... I did consider drawing to the attention of the forum at the time but decided that it was essentially catharsis for the author and offered no real insight into road safety.

Nothing the SCPs do offer any real insight into road safety, yet here we are :D

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 23:04 
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OK- maybe there was a lack of observation etc on the driver's part ,but
Quote:
"Are you all right, mate? I saw everything. The kid ran out in front of you – there was nothing you could have done."
the fact that the kid got out of a car and ran off - .If this had been a dog running amok in a field of sheep -the owner would be held responsible . Lets plant blame where blame should be planted - on the shoulders of those SUPPOSED to be in charge of the child-who failed in they're duty of care ,not only to thge child ,but to other road users .Perhaps some education on keeping kids under control ( especially the young ones) might not go amiss . Safety is a two way street - those who can cause harm must be aware of the risks of actions ,and those entering the risk area must be aware of the risks entailed .

Possible driver error - and he'll think about it till he dies .Then there's child road safety ,and DISCIPLINE -perhaps a failing of modern day society .

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 23:25 
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Canadian brain researchers Hal Weinberg PhD and Michael Gaetz from the Brain Behaviour Laboratory at Simon Fraser University suggest that the ability of the brain to react to unexpected events depends on an optimal range of speed rather than simply going slower. They write "If events are changing very slowly but something happens suddenly, requiring an immediate response, the brain may react less efficiently than if events had already been changing more rapidly. Similarly, drivers may be able to discriminate and handle distractions better -- another critical form of processing additional information -- when their minds are already fully engaged, rather than having to shift suddenly from more automatic behaviour. But again only up to a point." Are you driving too slow for the unexpected?


Quote:
We were on the way to pick up my wife who had been working away for a few days, and we were all excited about seeing her.


So was his mind focused on other things ?

Quote:
I think I was going at 20mph at the point of impact, and maybe now you will agree with me that that should be the speed limit in built-up areas


So if the limit was dropped to 20 and if he didn't have time to brake the outcome would still be the same.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 23:50 
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Quote:
Canadian brain researchers Hal Weinberg PhD and Michael Gaetz from the Brain Behaviour Laboratory at Simon Fraser University suggest that the ability of the brain to react to unexpected events depends on an optimal range of speed rather than simply going slower. They write "If events are changing very slowly but something happens suddenly, requiring an immediate response, the brain may react less efficiently than if events had already been changing more rapidly. Similarly, drivers may be able to discriminate and handle distractions better -- another critical form of processing additional information -- when their minds are already fully engaged, rather than having to shift suddenly from more automatic behaviour. But again only up to a point." Are you driving too slow for the unexpected?


Interesting. Having spent a fair bit of time in sailing boats, it's AMAZING how often (and easy!) it is for them to hit each other! When you consider how "big" the sea is and how slow sailing boats are, I'm beginning to wonder if there is something in the above statement?!

As for the main article, I agree with DCB - it does sound like someone un-burdening himself, and the article then being used for propaganda purposes in support of those with a particular agenda, without any real attempt at serious analysis. :( Interesting, for example, that he feels guilty about driving at a particular speed, but he could just as easily have titled the article "why I should have bought a car with a 5-star EuroNCAP pedestrian safety rating" and used the article to call for more pedestrian-freindly car designs.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 02:01 
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It's good that the study authors have linked their research directly to road safety and speeds, but the arousal/performance bell-curve is nothing new.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 07:52 
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This is probably going to make me sound callous but whenever I see "child" used in road safety propaganda, it is just that, propaganda.

In reality, the death of a responsible adult will generally have much more far reaching consequences than the death of a child in these circumstances. Apart from grief, the loss of a child will have little effect on society.

You never see "responsible adult killed" headlines do you?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 09:09 
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malcolmw wrote:
This is probably going to make me sound callous but whenever I see "child" used in road safety propaganda, it is just that, propaganda.

In reality, the death of a responsible adult will generally have much more far reaching consequences than the death of a child in these circumstances. Apart from grief, the loss of a child will have little effect on society.

You never see "responsible adult killed" headlines do you?



When you consider socioty worked just fine in the past when only a minority of children reached adulthood, (and it wasnt that long ago either!* ) You are probabally right!


(* My Edwardian Grandmother used to talk about "The Sink Test"! Lets see if anybody can guess what she was talking about!)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 09:21 
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On the other hand, I've heard it said more than once that "you never get over the death of a child". I guess the biggest drawback is that until they become "responsible adults" you never know what contribution they might have made to society.

To a certain extent, I guess we, as a society, have always held that view - we used to send them down mines as they were much cheaper (and more expendable) than adults - and we send (admittedly) older "children" off into the front line in battle, whilst the older (and presumably more responsible ones) stay further behind...


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 09:23 
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Dusty wrote:
When you consider socioty worked just fine in the past when only a minority of children reached adulthood


It did?????

Not sure I'd be that keen on going back there, myself!!!

(My bold!)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 09:37 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
...I do agree that a child choosing to run out is highly likely to be injured at nearly any speed, how much will depend on many factors, some of which are difficult to predict no matter how good or how carefully you may travel. The speed will never manage to 'make it safe' just because someone sets a particular limit, his story fails to prove why or how or even if 20mph would have prevented the accident...

Well that is quite right but what you and many of your chums have failed to see is that the lower speed in the accident has in this brilliantly illustrative case prevented the seriousness of the INJURY whatever the cause of the accident.

SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
Case unproven - where are any facts other than as a driver to pay better attention to conditions & having much better awareness would have got him. What might he have achieved better with 20mph ?
Another propaganda story.

A driver that was paying better attention to conditions & having much better awareness but did encounter the unexpected child and adult at exactly the same distance and may have not been able to have prevented the collision occurring at say 80mph would have cut the 2 people in half.
The case is proven as is the case that you have shown little understanding of road casualty reduction beyond that of the lay-person.
Another story you have simply not appreciated.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:10 
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The lay-person? You're the one not able to look below the surface in this story, and are willing to take this emotional gushing at face value.

He impacted the pedestrians at 20mph. What is the average impact speed in 30mph zones? If we had blanket 20mph limits in all residential areas would that obviate the drivers' need to react to events like this? It's ok, they're only doing 20mph, so they can plough straight into pedestrians.

So, despite the fact he was in a 30mph limit, reacting to a "from nowhere" situation, and potentially distracted, he managed to hit two pedestriants with a force that only caused bruising. Why does this support 20mph limits?

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Last edited by RobinXe on Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:14, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:11 
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malcolmw wrote:
In reality, the death of a responsible adult will generally have much more far reaching consequences than the death of a child in these circumstances. Apart from grief, the loss of a child will have little effect on society.

But a child represents an investment upon which society has had no return.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:40 
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I think I was going at 20mph at the point of impact,


What's to say that he wasn't actually going faster than 20MPH, people often judge their speed totally wrong and again relate it to other people incorrectly, WHAT IF he was actually doing 30MPH or 29MPH, does this prove that 30MPH limits are safe enough?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:57 
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I’ve got a few more: -

The day someone backed into me and realised reverse gear must be taken off all cars.

The day I fell off a ladder and realised all ladders must be withdrawn from circulation.

The day I cut my finger with a kitchen knife and realised all knives must be banned.

The day I lit a fire which burnt me and I realised all fires must be prevented.

The day I read a news item in a British Medical Journal and realised idiots should not be allowed to publish crap. :x

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