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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:09 
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Congestion charge considered as gridlock threatens historic city
Published Date: 14 February 2010
By Paul Jeeves
TRANSPORT experts behind London's congestion charge are being consulted about enforcing controversial road tolls in York that could cost as much as £244m to introduce.
Efforts to tackle traffic tailbacks in the North Yorkshire city are now being intensified following an estimate that the number of vehicles on York's roads could increase by as much as 28 per cent by 2021.

Councillors have admitted that continuing with York's existing transport policies is not an option.
They are now looking in detail at the possibility of introducing a congestion charge.
They have confirmed that experts – including the firm used to implement London scheme – are now being consulted.
A shortlist of four options – ranging in cost from £97m to £244m – is being analysed including schemes to boost public transport and encourage walking and cycling, as well as the possibility of road tolls.
Members of York Council's cross-party traffic congestion scrutiny committee have prepared a survey that is being sent out to the city's 90,000 households in the next fortnight to find out what people think about tackling the problem.
Committee chairman Councillor Dave Merrett, admitted that a "radical future solution" was needed to stop the city becoming gridlocked.
Two main traffic bottlenecks in need of major improvements are the western and northern sections of the city's outer ring road – which has been dubbed "Yorkshire's answer to the M25" by business experts.
Coun Merritt admitted that securing funding to finance improvements on the scale needed presents a "really serious challenge", especially at a time when public spending cuts are imminent.
But he added: "Based on the evidence, it is clear that the city has few choices that will really make a dent in the long-term growth of traffic and congestion in the city.
"Many measures only make a marginal difference that is soon swallowed up by further traffic growth.
"The committee agreed with officers' views that a radical future solution will be required if we are to avoid the further serious spread of congestion well outside the current problem areas, increasing delays and disruption to motorists and bus users, continuing air quality problems and negative effects on both the York economy and the quality of life in the city."
The possibility of road tolls emerged in October when the transport policy review began. Congestion charges and levies on car commuting into York are the most contentious ideas.
Councillors stressed that charging motorists would only be pursued if promoting environmentally-friendly methods of transport, including cycling, buses and trains, proved ineffective.
Some work has already started. Proposals were unveiled last month by the Council to improve the approach to Micklegate Bar, which dates from Roman times and is used by as many as 17,000 drivers a day.
More bus and cycle lanes and junction improvements are being put in place on Fulford Road.
The consultation lasts until March 26.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:42 
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Yorkshire Post wrote:
Committee chairman Councillor Dave Merrett, admitted that a "radical future solution" was needed to stop the city becoming gridlocked.
Two main traffic bottlenecks in need of major improvements are the western and northern sections of the city's outer ring road

Er, is it me or are these statements contradictory. If the problem is that the ring road is inadequate, how will a congestion charge in the city centre help? As usual, one idea never raised is to BUILD MORE ROADS.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 14:26 
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malcolmw wrote:
Yorkshire Post wrote:
Committee chairman Councillor Dave Merrett, admitted that a "radical future solution" was needed to stop the city becoming gridlocked.
Two main traffic bottlenecks in need of major improvements are the western and northern sections of the city's outer ring road

Er, is it me or are these statements contradictory. If the problem is that the ring road is inadequate, how will a congestion charge in the city centre help? As usual, one idea never raised is to BUILD MORE ROADS.


No. A congestion charge will dissuade people from coming to the City - an outcome which the local Chamber of Trade will applaud - and so they will no drive on the ring road. You cannot build more roads in the inner city so the real answer is a good, fast and frequent free park and ride system from outside the ring road

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 14:36 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
A congestion charge will dissuade people from coming to the City - an outcome which the local Chamber of Trade will applaud - and so they will no drive on the ring road. You cannot build more roads in the inner city so the real answer is a good, fast and frequent free park and ride system from outside the ring road

I assume your first statement about the local traders is ironic.

Park and ride falls down if you want to buy anything like a tin of paint which buses are banned from carrying (see numerous examples of related stupidity). Park and ride is for employees in the City Centre and not shoppers. Most workers will arrive at, say, 08:30 and leave at 17:15. So how will the daytime congestion be reduced as, in York, it is all tourism.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 14:52 
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Park and ride falls-down when you want to carry any shopping.
Apart from paint.
Bedford could benefit from it more....the town hall and county hall staff could use it...that would get rid of over 500 cars a day.
And the station carpark could be larger, and cheaper, which would stop people parking in the hospital carpark and walking to the station.
Then again, the recent partially-completed bypass could be totally completed....it only took 50 years to build the part that's there now....the part linking the A6 to the A428 and thence to the A421 still remains unplanned.
But there's no money....there was enough to go the unitary authority route though....which was said to mean staff cuts and money saved...instead it has led to staff increases and a forthcoming rate rise of over 5%.
Let's face it....local councilors are wasters.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 21:14 
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Oh, I dunno. There might be some merit in a congestion charge! It would kep all the "riff-raff" out of the city centre 'cause they'd be too poor to pay it - thereby leaving more space for the people who not only would pay the congestion charge, but would be much more likely to spend a decent amount in the fanciest city centre shops! They could then build loads of out-of-town "retail purchase experience parks" for the plebs outside the ring road and that's the problem solved! :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 21:25 
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Mole wrote:
Oh, I dunno. There might be some merit in a congestion charge! It would kep all the "riff-raff" out of the city centre 'cause they'd be too poor to pay it - thereby leaving more space for the people who not only would pay the congestion charge, but would be much more likely to spend a decent amount in the fanciest city centre shops! They could then build loads of out-of-town "retail purchase experience parks" for the plebs outside the ring road and that's the problem solved!

Isn't York already a bit like that anyway, with extortionate central car parking charges and a massive retail park at Clifton Moor (although that is actually just inside the ring road)? The true riff-raff in York will have travelled in on the bus.

Malcolm is right - the biggest transport problem in York is the chronic inadequacy of the A1237 northern and western ring road.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 22:25 
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PeterE wrote:
Malcolm is right - the biggest transport problem in York is the chronic inadequacy of the A1237 northern and western ring road.


If you widen roads or build more they just end up with more cars on them.

See M25.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 22:42 
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weepej wrote:
If you widen roads or build more they just end up with more cars on them.

See M25.

That's right, these better roads pull traffic from the relatively slower and less safe side roads; is that really all that surprising?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 23:41 
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weepej wrote:
PeterE wrote:
Malcolm is right - the biggest transport problem in York is the chronic inadequacy of the A1237 northern and western ring road.

If you widen roads or build more they just end up with more cars on them.

Likewise, if you improve train services you (often) just end up with more people on them.

It would be interesting to see a list of roads built over the past 50 years that you think should be returned to the plough, and then see what local people think about that :P

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 00:15 
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PeterE wrote:
Likewise, if you improve train services you (often) just end up with more people on them.


More people on trains is liveable. More vehicles (with one person in them) on roads is not.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 00:21 
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weepej wrote:
PeterE wrote:
Likewise, if you improve train services you (often) just end up with more people on them.

More people on trains is liveable. More vehicles (with one person in them) on roads is not.

Umm, if you improve train services, you generally end up with more trains...

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 00:34 
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weepej wrote:
More people on trains is liveable. More vehicles (with one person in them) on roads is not.

More cars on wider roads (or more roads) is just as liveable - single person occupancy or otherwise.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 00:58 
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Steve wrote:
weepej wrote:
More people on trains is liveable. More vehicles (with one person in them) on roads is not.

More cars on wider roads (or more roads) is just as liveable - single person occupancy or otherwise.



Well that's debatable.

More pollution, more noise, more road deaths, and pretty soon after the expansion, the same level of congestion.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 01:05 
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weepej wrote:
PeterE wrote:
Malcolm is right - the biggest transport problem in York is the chronic inadequacy of the A1237 northern and western ring road.


If you widen roads or build more they just end up with more cars on them.

See M25.

Is that true though? I can see how it might be up to a point, but once every holder of a driving licence in the UK has a car and uses it every day, how much worse can it get? Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favour of covering every inch of the country in tarmac, but as far as I can see it ought to be self-limiting, shouldn't it? Compared to the costs being bandied about for various solutions, the cost of "doing absolutely nothing" looks quite good! If we "did nothing", (no congestion charge, no new roads) the system would reach equilibrium sooner or later. I've often wondered why many commuters sit in their cars getting wound up and going nowhere fast. I used to do it myself when I worked in Manchester and lived just outside it. Clearly, the people who do this must feel some perceived benefit, so why not let them? When we reach saturation point, no more people will go to York 'cause it's "full".


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 01:20 
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weepej wrote:
Steve wrote:
weepej wrote:
More people on trains is liveable. More vehicles (with one person in them) on roads is not.

More cars on wider roads (or more roads) is just as liveable - single person occupancy or otherwise.

Well that's debatable.

How?

weepej wrote:
More pollution, more noise, more road deaths, and pretty soon after the expansion, the same level of congestion.

Had you not used the word "road", folks could be forgiven for not knowing if you were referring to cars or trains.

Even when disregarding Mole's very valid point, the "same level of congestion" for more parallel paths still implies greater throughput, and also implies 'pulled' displacement from other roads. Improving the structure of the safest class of road ("See M25") and can lead to less road deaths overall (over the entire road network).

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 23:19 
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Mole wrote:
Clearly, the people who do this must feel some perceived benefit, so why not let them? When we reach saturation point, no more people will go to York 'cause it's "full".


They let that happen to London a while back. It just got worse and worse and there was quite regular gridlock causing huge economic issues (IIRC it was businesses that asked for the congestion charge). Congestion is more than just people sitting in cars. Goods movement, emergency services, mass transit are all negatively affected.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 09:50 
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weepej wrote:
Steve wrote:
weepej wrote:
More people on trains is liveable. More vehicles (with one person in them) on roads is not.

More cars on wider roads (or more roads) is just as liveable - single person occupancy or otherwise.



Well that's debatable.

More pollution, more noise, more road deaths, and pretty soon after the expansion, the same level of congestion.


So in summary, cars = bad, trains = good. It really is that simple, apparently, if you look at it through dogma-specs.

Aren't the peak-time train services pretty much full up anyway? But presumably building more railways is ok is it, because the pollution caused by electric trains happens somewhere else?

And as for the fatuous comment about the M25 filling up...

a. Imagine what London would be like without it. If it hadn't been built, London's economic development would've been stifled to a huge degree. Oh, wait, that's probably a good thing, because...

b. Maybe the M25 is full of people going where they want to go, and businesses going to areas where they want to do business. Why would supressing these activities be a good thing for the people involved? That's where the whole idea of "demand management" falls down: prevent people from going what they want, so that the roads are clear for people to go where they want. If they are rich enough.

c. If you sign up for the idea that because people will only want to use them, new roads should not be built, when should road building have ceased? Before the motorway network? the turnpikes? Help me out here!


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 09:54 
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weepej wrote:
PeterE wrote:
Likewise, if you improve train services you (often) just end up with more people on them.


More people on trains is liveable. More vehicles (with one person in them) on roads is not.


Oh, and I can't ignore this one.

Who is allowed a car then? If no-one else is, then why should you have one? Sell your car now, Weeps, or explain this hypocrisy.

How should we limit car use? By money? By who was driving first? By level of occupancy? By just keeping the roads in a crappy condition so no-one wants to drive?

Any of these ideas less daft than the others? Not to me...


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 14:42 
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There are road works on Southend Sea Front.

Up until january, on a nice sunny day, the A127 east bound would be very busy. People would flock to Southend and park on the seafront. They would walk up and down, eat ice cream and chips and paddle in the sea. Plenty of people would come on the train too if they were coming from London. The sea front is wide, has a wide foot path and plenty of parking for day trippers, with shoppers and locals parking in town. All was well.

Now the sea front is awash with construction gear. I cannot find out what is going on, but this is what it looks like.

The parking spaces on the near side are being removed and a cycle lane is being put in their place. In the middle, between the 2 lanes of traffic are parkins spaces, but it doesn't look like they are staying, and if they are it will be very tight getting out and there will be no room to pass cars as they get in and out of the parking spaces. So the traffic will come to a stand still. I don'e see and big new car park being built anywhere, so it will be very interesting to see where all the displaced day trippers are going to park. It also looks like they are doing their best to discourage driving along the sea front. Great, it is/was a handy way of getting across town, so now it looks like we will have to use the A13, which is horrendous and all the side roads have been speed humped, so they are out too. The A13 can't have any more capacity, because it goes right through town.

I hope I am wrong, but this is what looks like is happening.


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