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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 16:42 
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Steve wrote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
Neither. I sat them down in front of the computer and let them read what they wanted without direction from me.

So what threads/posts did they read?

Sorry but I have trouble believing that


Once again, from your privileged position as moderator you are doubting my veracity (or calling me a liar as we would say in Yorkshire)

On this board are a set of forums devoted to "specific road user groups". In that set there is no forum for pedestrians. That is indicative of the mind set of the people who administer this board. Would you establish such a forum as there are some pedestrian related matters I would like to discuss?

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 17:21 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Once again, from your privileged position as moderator you are doubting my veracity (or calling me a liar as we would say in Yorkshire)

I have given my reasoning as to why I doubt it (moderator or not); it is up to you to counter my response. Basing your argument on my position will not enable you to do that.

dcbwhaley wrote:
On this board are a set of forums devoted to "specific road user groups". In that set there is no forum for pedestrians. That is indicative of the mind set of the people who administer this board. Would you establish such a forum as there are some pedestrian related matters I would like to discuss?

There is no specific car section either, yet there is a cycling section.

AFAIK there has been no specific request for such a section until very recently; it is already under review. If there is a genuine need then it will be done. I'm not against it.

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 17:27 
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Steve wrote:
I have given my reasoning as to why I doubt it (moderator or not); it is up to you to counter my response. Basing your argument on my position will not enable you to do that.


You baldly denied that I had shown this board to family and friends. The fact that I have not been able to convince you of my argument has no bearing on the veracity of that statement.

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There is no specific car section either, yet there is a cycling section
.
The rest of the board should be adequate for motoring topics. But if you have specific topics for cyclists, motor-cyclists and truckers I can see no reason, other than prejudice, why you shouldn't have one for pedestrians.

Quote:
AFAIK there has been no specific request for such a section until very recently; it is already under review. If there is a genuine need then it will be done. I'm not against it.

Fair enough

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 19:43 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
You baldly denied that I had shown this board to family and friends.

Really? Please show where and quote the offending text.
I believe I said "I have trouble believing that, especially since both of you have comprehensively failed to demonstrate to me why I should act on my promise (which is still open and always will be)."; note how that doesn't nearly equate to "no you didn't" :roll: I wouldn't rely on such a stupid claim because I know I cannot substantiate it (hint!)

dcbwhaley wrote:
The fact that I have not been able to convince you of my argument has no bearing on the veracity of that statement.

Correct, the statement may well be true, but it cannot reasonably be proven or disproven - it cannot have any significance to the reader. Anecdotal statements cannot have any bearing on arguments they support when those statements cannot be proven.

dcbwhaley wrote:
The rest of the board should be adequate for motoring topics. But if you have specific topics for cyclists, motor-cyclists and truckers I can see no reason, other than prejudice, why you shouldn't have one for pedestrians.

I guess by that logic it must dispel any notions that 'we' are anti-cyclist!
The rest of the board has thus far proven to be adequate for pedestrian topics (or at least no one has complained that a lack of a section has prevented them from discussing such issues); this is a great part of the reason why a specific forum doesn't exist. How could you not see that as a reason?
Don't forget, this is a campaign about speed cameras and their effect on road safety; even cyclists are pinged by speed cameras.

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 19:59 
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I have trouble believing a statement. It is very Jesuitical to deny that that does not mean that you think that the statement is a lie. Do you require an affidavit sworn before three magistrates from my wife before you will believe that she has browesed this board and reached the conclusions I attributed to her?

Incidentally why do you keep referring to me in the plural?

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 20:34 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
I have trouble believing a statement. It is very Jesuitical to deny that that does not mean that you think that the statement is a lie. Do you require an affidavit sworn before three magistrates from my wife before you will believe that she has browesed this board and reached the conclusions I attributed to her?

Strawman!
Only the wife? Anyway, I wouldn't go that far, there are other less formal ways. Anyway, that's completely irrelevant; I would still ask them to justify their opinion.
Are you sure you want to say that there is no difference between 'having no reason to believe' and 'it cannot have happened'; are these really the kind of logical steps you wish to use to prove your perception to the reader?
Remember, your words were "You baldly denied that I had shown this board to family and friends."
Skeptical - Denied; did you see any difference between these two? :roll:

Now, what if someone else were to post that they 'had shown it to their friends and family, and they found no such general sentiment', would you accept that as absolute fact without question, or have a doubt?

dcbwhaley wrote:
Incidentally why do you keep referring to me in the plural?

I don't. I'm referring to the efforts of you and weepej.

For all your waffle, you still haven’t managed to demonstrate the claimed general sentiment. As I've said several times already, it would have been very easy for you to give many recent posts contributing to this 'deep seam', so instead of fluffing around why don't you just do it? Now you've had your wife, family and friends to help you identity offending texts - how difficult can it be?

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 21:24 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
On this board are a set of forums devoted to "specific road user groups". In that set there is no forum for pedestrians. That is indicative of the mind set of the people who administer this board. Would you establish such a forum as there are some pedestrian related matters I would like to discuss?


There are issues that affect and intrest those groups specifically of which non-trucker/biker people have little knowledge or perhaps interest of, so it seems sensible to have a dedicated forum. As everyone is a pedestrian pedestrian topics are relevant to all so the general forums would seem appropriate.

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 21:33 
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hairyben wrote:
There are issues that affect and intrest those groups specifically of which non-trucker/biker people have little knowledge or perhaps interest of, so it seems sensible to have a dedicated forum. As everyone is a pedestrian pedestrian topics are relevant to all so the general forums would seem appropriate.


Thank you, Ben, for a convincing, cogent and non strident response to my suggestion. What you say makes sense and completely convinces me. Perhaps you should be the moderator :clap:

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 21:35 
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Quote:
dcbwhaley wrote:Incidentally why do you keep referring to me in the plural?

I don't. I'm referring to the efforts of you and weepej.


I am in no way aligned with Weepej so please have the courtesy to treat us as individuals.

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 22:31 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
I am in no way aligned with Weepej so please have the courtesy to treat us as individuals.

I didn't say or imply you were :roll:
However, I have posed you both the challenge of demonstrating to me that there is an anti-non-motorist 'deep seam', which I don't believe is unreasonable being as you both seem to hold this opinion. Do you really expect me to make separate posts to you both repeating ing the same thing?

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 05:12 
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This Thread is Seriously OFF TOPIC.
I am stating a few comments below, and then ALL further discussion that is NOT to do with Red Light Jumping - can move to HERE or make a new Topic in the appropriate Forum/s. Thank you for your assistance with this.

weepej wrote:
I'm always amazed that when I'm out walking with somebody they might moan at people in cars that don't show due respect to pedestrians in their view, but when I'm in a car with them they might moan at pedestrians who don't show due repect for cars in their view.
Good but a sad point. Hence the NEED for excellent and well I was going to say 'better' information (public info films, leaflets, stickers etc etc = marketing) but there is so little out there that almost ANY is required ! To encourage MUTUAL functionality is crucial, there is NO single society but multiple, that MUST and needs to work, symbiotically, for the good of all road users.
People are often referred to as being 'busy' which also implies that they have no time for anyone else. This 'selfish' behaviour means that as congestion is brought upon us along with less 'space' to exist in, we are all asked to move within, ever decreasing circles !
So then it is hardly a surprise when barriers, aggression and anger quickly rise to the surface. People increasingly 'snap' when they would have 'normally' (and before) just behaved with courtesy and basic human care for another.
weepej wrote:
And there's clearly a deep seam running through this forum that roads are for cars, and cars only
dcbwhaley wrote:
That is my increasing impression too. And that there is a lot of resentment to poster who disagree with that. Although I am very much in agreement with the anti-camera message of Safe Speed I fear that many of the posters are doing the campaign no good.
The forums are a free speech place to voice opinions of ALL nature relating to all road use. We welcome opposing opinions, so that we can debate freely.
It is good if you feel that there is much car discussion, as cars are the predominant vehicle on the roads, so it is highly likely therefor that it follows that most of the conversations are reflected accordingly.
graball wrote:
... Or maybe we could just educate people to be more wary of their environment?
I would be saying be VERY AWARE of their surroundings at all times, whenever on ANY part of the roadway, or pavement.
Quote:
weepej wrote:
And there's clearly a deep seam running through this forum that roads are for cars, and cars only
dcbwhaley wrote:
That is my increasing impression too. And that there is a lot of resentment to poster who disagree with that. Although I am very much in agreement with the anti-camera message of Safe Speed I fear that many of the posters are doing the campaign no good.
SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
I don't see that but then I *KNOW* that is not the truth. Can you point me to threads that show this please ?
dcbwhaley wrote:
In another thread, which you can find for yourself, a cyclist who was injured by a motorcyclist is held to be culpable because he wasn't wearing a helmet. But motor car passengers injured because they are not wearing seat belts are "tragic victims". I could go on but I would only break my heart attempting to fight such a deeply seated prejudice.
People are often casual when they express themselves, and often mean a generality of a point and are not being absolute or specific. Plus misinterpretation can be rife sadly. Smilies can help to express the emotions, but it can be hard to always take the gist as it is meant. We always try to obtain as many facts from specific cases as possible, but sometimes we only have a papers brief Court outline and occasionally more details follow later. Then again do remember that posters do NOT speak for Safe Speed. The forums are separate to the website which is the precise and official view, along with my own of course.
dcbwhaley wrote:
And your contention that you *KNOW* disinclines me to attempt to convince one whose mind is firmly closed against an idea they dislike.
This forum discusses all aspects of the Highways and Byways of this Country, many of us have many modes of transport and often voice our opinions from those aspects too. My 'know', very much - refers to the fact that I am confident that people here are well aware that 'Roads are not just for cars', but for all forms of road transport, and that all those road users, are to be respected and never segregated or hierarchical favoured, other than where is practically sensible.
I have a very open mind to new concepts of all kinds. I may not agree with them, but I give all ideas a thorough debate and if a new piece of advice or concept evolves from that debate, great. I see that you have the envious job of working in optics / astronomy, you must constantly be seeking new ideas and concepts, so I am sure you can relate to my perceptions here.
To imply that I pick and choose what to believe seems strange, when the website is always seeking the truth and hard facts. The forum which is here to freely seek understanding of Road use and safety (etc), it is separate to the website.
dcbwhaley wrote:
This campaign against speed cameras is a fine one which I support wholeheartedly and, Clare, I admire your work. But despite that these forums are populated by a number of self righteous J Bonnington Jagworths who feel that the possession of a driving licence gives them ownership of the roads.
Thank you for your support, long may it continue.
It would be a severe injustice if I do not point out, that it is Paul my late partner, that made the website and started this forum, he alone must take full credit. Whilst I have helped him in the background, and we have had a passion for driving from even before we met some 26yrs ago, this is his creation, that I am doing my best to proudly continue.
If opinion were, that 'roads are only for cars', then this is the perfect platform, to educate and guide those that held such a totally floored and non-sense concept !
dcbwhaley wrote:
I have shown these forums to a number of non members, my family friends and they all get the same impression.
I assume you mean here about the 'roads are for cars'? Well then we could hold a Poll in the Poll forum ... I do not have this impression at all, if a pre-conceived idea is placed in someone's mind, then they look with that in mind thereafter ... much research has to be done with great care never to influence, for a totally unbiased viewpoint, NOT that I AM suggesting that you have done this ! However friends and family, may have heard you chat about your communications here, and might have formed a preconceived idea from your prior discussions. However I hope that they will take part (or maybe they already are :) ) perhaps, and then we can start a NEW thread and discuss this at length.
dcbwhaley wrote:
On this board are a set of forums devoted to "specific road user groups". In that set there is no forum for pedestrians. That is indicative of the mind set of the people who administer this board. Would you establish such a forum as there are some pedestrian related matters I would like to discuss?
I am sorry that you feel this way. If I/we felt that there was a call for such a forum, sure, but most pedestrian discussions that often occur relate to incidents that are linked with other road groups, and can also sit within the Safety, Speed, Driving and the Law or other areas.
Paul like yourself was an (Computer) Electronics Engineer, and would be 'dead precise', as well as concise, and created sections as were deemed necessary and 'fit for purpose'. Like him I am always open to ideas.
We must take this discussion out of this Topic, however. Please go HERE ...

To ALL : For now this thread MUST either return to its TOPIC or I will have to intervene further. :( Thank you :)
Forum Rules

Red Light Jumping :
Ziltro wrote:
I think the red light should mean "give way" then (most - narrow roads might need something different) traffic lights would be there to swap priorities around, and there would be no "stop even though there's nothing coming".
dcbwhaley wrote:
This is another example of motor centric thinkng.. Such a system would make it very difficult for less nimble pedestrians to cross the road.
Well the system could I assume still press a button and then the system commences a sequence that enables the pedestrian to cross and then other roads / crossings go in sequence and a return back to the setup of 'give way'.
This is just an interesting exploration of 'what if's' and can this be 'bettered'. Some of the best ideas happen when people think out of the box.
dcbwhaley wrote:
Pedestrian crossings are not ideal for nervous pedestrians. The average British motorist has too little sympathy for pedestrians for any system which relies on the pedestrian asserting her right to cross the road in the face of a motor car to work properly. This is why zebra crossings are largely replaced by pelican crossings.
I cannot say that I have seen people unable to cross a pedestrian crossing or have to wait long at all to enable to cross the road. As a pedestrian I have crossed with other people and sometimes elderly people with no perceived problems.
If there is a problem with the elderly crossing a road, it is NOT the crossing that is at the heart of the problem but the drivers / riders. The core problem must always be the issue that needs to be addressed, by being improved or adjusted accordingly.

Red lights mean STOP and I think that should never change for many reasons.

The possibility that traffic lights could be left on AMBER for difficult junctions and reactivate as and when the junction (etc) became busy. When the busy moment passes, it reverts back to the Amber system returning the junction to a GIVE WAY and road marking identifying the main route still. This I think has some interesting benefits.
The growing delay on RED is a dangerous policy. As Steve has pointed out this is devaluing the system, people 'run' them sometimes, as they can 'see' it is safe, and as they become increasingly frustrated, with the excessive delays and increasing dis-respect for them.

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 19:43 
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Red light jumping is dangerous and accidents do happen even when people are looking out for other people or vehicles. So everybody should abide the red light signals, but I can see why certain members "ignore" red light signals where there is no danger (or apparent danger) to them by ignoring them eg motorway slip road lights, as these are only there for traffic management rather than safety. The councils should be re-phasing lights so when the traffic is light especially at night, the lights will change as you approach them even if they have just changed to red.

A recently re-engineered crossroads in Luton at the bottom of Stockingstone Rd hill, which has a set of traffic lights, has been re-phased/ programmed, so when you approach at about 30mph or below,when the traffic is light, these will change to green without you having to stop. You may be approaching the red lights quite slowly but at least you don't have to stop as the lights can been seen to change to green.This situation is much less dangerous then where the lights are red for an excessive amount of time at night sadly encouraging red light jumping.

So councils can rephase traffic lights for the better and not always at the detriment of road users. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 19:50 
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StreetF117 wrote:
as these are only there for traffic management rather than safety.



I'd dispute that, they're also used to close the motorway. Sneak past one and don't be surprised if you wipe out on a load of diesel, whack into the back of a a pile up, or pillar into a load of sheep wondering around.


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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 20:43 
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weepej wrote:
StreetF117 wrote:
as these are only there for traffic management rather than safety.



I'd dispute that, they're also used to close the motorway. Sneak past one and don't be surprised if you wipe out on a load of diesel, whack into the back of a a pile up, or pillar into a load of sheep wondering around.

A diesel slide can occur on any road; those driving to the conditions likely won't get involved in a pile up; sheep could so instead be people.

http://www.highways.gov.uk/knowledge/17308.aspx
First line of the FAQ: "This system, known as ramp metering, is a way to better manage traffic on the motorways and trunk roads to reduce congestion and smooth traffic flows."
I gotta agree with F117 :welcome:

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 20:47 
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Steve wrote:
First line of the FAQ: "This system, known as ramp metering, is a way to better manage traffic on the motorways and trunk roads to reduce congestion and smooth traffic flows."
I gotta agree with F117 :welcome:



You don't think they'd turn all the lights to red if the motorway's shut?


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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 20:54 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
The forums are a free speech place to voice opinions of ALL nature relating to all road use. We welcome opposing opinions, so that we can debate freely.


Small OT point, when you say "We" do you mean Safe Speed or the board posters?

If it's the former I'd recommend using "Safe Speed" instead of "we", if it's the latter I'd seriously challenge that after the treatment I've had here from various posters, including Safe Speed members (although granted It might be hopeful thinking on your part that all posters should welcome different views).

If it's the former remember I've had the "Troll Alert" status assigned to me by the moderators, hardly condusive to debate.


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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 21:06 
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Quote:
You don't think they'd turn all the lights to red if the motorway's shut?


These slip road lights are usually positioned at the bottom of the slip road where it joins the motorway. To turn these on red permanantly would cause evryone on the slip road to be "trapped". It would be more sensible to allow them onto the motorway to be guided off at the next junction, probably by using the hard shoulder as an escape. To close the slip road you would need to position a police car(s) at the top (or entry) to the slip road.

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 01:06 
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:welcome: StreetF117

StreetF117 wrote:
Red light jumping is dangerous .... The councils should be re-phasing lights so when the traffic is light especially at night, the lights will change as you approach them even if they have just changed to red.

:) I understand the sentiments, but we cannot have road users ignoring traffic lights. Even if we put aside the fact that it is illegal for a second, the imminent danger can be extremely dangerous. The problem that needs to be addressed is why are the T/Lights there if they are doing no good whatsoever, and costing money to be run totally un-necessarily. Bad traffic systems, attract little respect from road users. we need systems that are sensible, safe and appropriate.
In the mean time you might try applying to the local Roads Dept to have them made into p/t T/Lights as a starting point.
We have to solve the core problem - does the road need to be re-engineered ? - or needs to be widened ? - perhaps there is no funding, so the local Council has done this as a stop-gap solution, (?) to try to solve the traffic flow.
T/Lights that regularly go to green when you approached them, may encourage SOME people ignore them, in the false assumption that they always changed, leaving them open to greater possibility of accidentally 'running' them, as they pay less attention to them. A case of a preconceived assumption of right.

There maybe good reason to have some T/Lights revert to an AMBER position, reverting it to a Give Way / Caution or other clear identification signal (Note this is only an idea). There is one occasion that I know of - when a part/time T/Light system turns on ... giving a warning of activation starting.

StreetF117 wrote:
A recently re-engineered crossroads .... has been re-phased/ programmed, so when you approach at about 30mph or below,when the traffic is light, these will change to green ....
This situation is much less dangerous then where the lights are red for an excessive amount of time at night sadly encouraging red light jumping.

The concern over the 'green wave' light system, is that you need to travel at the top end of the Posted Limit (typically), and IF road conditions demand a slightly slower, but safer speed, drivers / riders may be disinclined to reduce their speed, in the belief of catching the lights and making progress. The advantage of travel over safety - sometimes! :(

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 15:42 
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The "Pedestrians who need more time to cross" is a good point, but one thats not exactly being served by extended red lights.

Despite inevitable opinions to the contrary, in my experience the vast majority of motorists have waited patiently at an amber or green light for an elderly or infirm person to finish crossing. It's this patience and courtesy that's actually being eroded in tandem with stupid light phasing, with motorists increasingly zooming off in front of pedestrians halfway across the road, impatient and perhaps thinking "if I don't go within the next 5 seconds I'll be here another 5 minutes, sod off out my way, the lights do not allow me time for courtesy. This is MY ALLOCATED TIME, wait for YOUR ALLOCATED TIME". Thats what happens when you divide people into groups where one group feels it's getting a bum deal- anger and resentment towards the other group.

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 17:55 
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:idea:

Has someone already invented the following:

An extra button on pedestrian crossings that you can press if you think you'll need extra time to cross?


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