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 Post subject: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 18:56 
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Is it just me noticing this, or has there been a marked increase?

Particularly at traffic lights that have been recently re-phased, which is quite popular in london of late, causing a wait that seems longer than necessary, certainally longer than was deemed necessary in the past and frequently "introducing" a new congestion spot or delay to ones journey.

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 04:33 
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Yeah I've noticed this. It is becoming quite normal in Poole where the traffic lights are on all night and really don't need to be. The council are treating us like we are stupid. Apparently we are not.

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 10:49 
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This runs parallel to one of the arguments which lead me to support the Safe Speed campaign.

The law itself is basically good: ideally people shouldn't jump reds; that’s obvious.
However, we’re not in an ideal world, and these lights are being increasingly used as full time traffic managers without justification.

Take roundabouts for example, this is a traffic manager that inherently doesn’t need traffic lights. Traffic lights could well be beneficial to flow at peak times, but they are detrimental at other times. It is because of the needless restriction they force upon people that they jump them - and for the most part it will be safe to do so – people will become accustomed to braking the law; it’s not that they want to, they just don’t see the point of abiding by it. This non-compliance in itself leads to calls for camera enforcement, even though the compliance isn’t needed.

Their overuse devalues them and leads to unpredictable behaviour; this isn’t conducive to road safety.

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 11:29 
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so now its ok for cyclists to jump the lights too... :D :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 16:35 
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Steve wrote:
The law itself is basically good: ideally people shouldn't jump reds; that’s obvious.

I'm not sure about that. I think the red light should mean "give way" then (most - narrow roads might need something different) traffic lights would be there to swap priorities around, and there would be no "stop even though there's nothing coming".

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 17:00 
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But then if we are to "Give way" at a red light there is no need for them at all. They are after all only replacing the "give way" priority at most roundabouts and road junctions anyway. The majority of traffic lights that have sprung up over the last five years, are at perfectly good junctions and roundabouts, that have worked well and safely for decades.

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 17:13 
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Ziltro wrote:
I think the red light should mean "give way" then (most - narrow roads might need something different) traffic lights would be there to swap priorities around, and there would be no "stop even though there's nothing coming".


This is another example of motor centric thinkng.. Such a system would make it very difficult for less nimble pedestrians to cross the road.

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 17:24 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Ziltro wrote:
I think the red light should mean "give way" then (most - narrow roads might need something different) traffic lights would be there to swap priorities around, and there would be no "stop even though there's nothing coming".


This is another example of motor centric thinkng.. Such a system would make it very difficult for less nimble pedestrians to cross the road.

Not necessarily: that could also include giving way to pedestrians - a la zebra crossings.

The area south of Southsea precinct (Portsmouth) was changed from traffic light controlled to zebra crossings with a roundabout - how much better is it?! :yesyes:
As a driver there is no longer any pointless queuing; the same goes for the pedestrian even though they now have priority.

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 18:08 
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Pedestrian crossings are not ideal for nervous pedestrians. The average British motorist has too little sympathy for pedestrians for any system which relies on the pedestrian asserting her right to cross the road in the face of a motor car to work properly. This is why zebra crossings are largely replaced by pelican crossings.

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 18:31 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Pedestrian crossings are not ideal for nervous pedestrians. The average British motorist has too little sympathy for pedestrians for any system which relies on the pedestrian asserting her right to cross the road in the face of a motor car to work properly. This is why zebra crossings are largely replaced by pelican crossings.

What would be ideal for nervous pedestrians is complete physical segregation from motor vehicles; we need to be a little more pragmatic than that in the real world. The zebra scheme I described works well enough in Portsmouth, no-one seems nervous crossing there.
I do agree that too many continue to drive when a pedestrian is obviously waiting to cross, but a driver will stop very, very soon - not all drivers are so unsympathetic; those who are should be dealt with by trafpol.

I don't have a problem with pelican crossings at junctions per se. The problem here is that while the lights are active, only one phase can be green - we can't have multiple green phases - or can we?
Perhaps it would be better to have part-time lights, activating when a pedestrian requests it when the system is during the off period.

Either way, traffic lights would be perceived as always being valuable (and everyone would always condemn a jumper). The system has failed when many people can reasonably sympathise with a jumper.

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 19:29 
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graball wrote:
But then if we are to "Give way" at a red light there is no need for them at all. They are after all only replacing the "give way" priority at most roundabouts and road junctions anyway. The majority of traffic lights that have sprung up over the last five years, are at perfectly good junctions and roundabouts, that have worked well and safely for decades.

I believe the problem with a standard give way is that one traffic flow would tend to dominate. The ability to switch the give way over to the opposing road and back again should solve that.

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 21:57 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Pedestrian crossings are not ideal for nervous pedestrians. The average British motorist has too little sympathy for pedestrians for any system which relies on the pedestrian asserting her right to cross the road in the face of a motor car to work properly. This is why zebra crossings are largely replaced by pelican crossings.


I'm always amused by this quaint notion that motorists and pedestrians are mutually exclusive groups.


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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 22:28 
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Johnnytheboy wrote:
I'm always amused by this quaint notion that motorists and pedestrians are mutually exclusive groups.


I'm always amazed that when I'm out walking with somebody they might moan at people in cars that don't show due respect to pedestrians in their view, but when I'm in a car with them they might moan at pedestrians who don't show due repect for cars in their view.

I've been in a car with somebody who's shouted at another motorist for doing something that they only did five minutes ago, completely oblivious to their own failings.

Some people (and it is only some) literally become motor centric when they're in their car, and pedestrian centric when they're walking, it's like they switch sides.

Literally, we've got people on this site that have called for jaywalking laws/said pedestrains should not be allowed on the road at all as if they've never crossed a road themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 22:36 
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weepej wrote:
Literally, we've got people on this site that have called for jaywalking laws/said pedestrains should not be allowed on the road at all as if they've never crossed a road themselves.

Who on this site "have called for jaywalking laws" ?

Who on this site "said pedestrains should not be allowed on the road at all" ?

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 23:06 
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weepej wrote:
Johnnytheboy wrote:
I'm always amused by this quaint notion that motorists and pedestrians are mutually exclusive groups.


I'm always amazed that when I'm out walking with somebody they might moan at people in cars that don't show due respect to pedestrians in their view, but when I'm in a car with them they might moan at pedestrians who don't show due repect for cars in their view.

I've been in a car with somebody who's shouted at another motorist for doing something that they only did five minutes ago, completely oblivious to their own failings.


You mean they get annoyed with anyone else that causes them the slightest bit of inconvenience.

I am amazed that that in this modern PC centric, touchy-feely society that there is such a lack of empathy between people trying to use the roads,i.e with the other poor slobs just trying to get where they are going. Given I am one of the least touchy-feely of people (Mr Spock was one of my role models as a kid) if I can notice this it must be pretty bad.

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 11:21 
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weepej wrote:
Johnnytheboy wrote:
I'm always amused by this quaint notion that motorists and pedestrians are mutually exclusive groups.


I'm always amazed that when I'm out walking with somebody they might moan at people in cars that don't show due respect to pedestrians in their view, but when I'm in a car with them they might moan at pedestrians who don't show due repect for cars in their view.

I've been in a car with somebody who's shouted at another motorist for doing something that they only did five minutes ago, completely oblivious to their own failings.

Some people (and it is only some) literally become motor centric when they're in their car, and pedestrian centric when they're walking, it's like they switch sides.

Literally, we've got people on this site that have called for jaywalking laws/said pedestrains should not be allowed on the road at all as if they've never crossed a road themselves.


I agree entirely with paragraph three.

Paragraph one: why can't someone disapprove of the behaviour of two different groups of road users? I don't like selfish drivers or selfish pedestrians. Though I admit, only doing it when you're on the 'other side of the fence' is a bit dodgy.


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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 20:36 
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Steve wrote:
weepej wrote:
Literally, we've got people on this site that have called for jaywalking laws/said pedestrains should not be allowed on the road at all as if they've never crossed a road themselves.

Who on this site "have called for jaywalking laws" ?

Who on this site "said pedestrains should not be allowed on the road at all" ?


A while back there was quite a long argument where a poster suggested pedestrians should only be allowed to cross at crossings (I think you suggested the same thing recently, as well as implementation of a jaywalking law if people can't stop walking into cars moving at speed).

Then we had the guy that said that a cyclist killed after going through a red light should've been left in the road as an example to other cyclists.

Wildcat is consistantly saying how it's good that children who get struck by cars in Sweden (?) are prosecuted for causing accidents.

And there's clearly a deep seam running through this forum that roads are for cars, and cars only.


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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 20:47 
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Wildcat is consistantly saying how it's good that children who get struck by cars in Sweden (?) are prosecuted for causing accidents.
Switzerland I think.

Quote:
And there's clearly a deep seam running through this forum that roads are for cars, and cars only

That is my increasing impression too. And that there is a lot of resentment to poster who disagree with that. Although I am very much in agreement with the anti-camera message of Safe Speed I fear that many of the posters are doing the campaign no good.

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 21:18 
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weepej wrote:
Steve wrote:
weepej wrote:
Literally, we've got people on this site that have called for jaywalking laws/said pedestrains should not be allowed on the road at all as if they've never crossed a road themselves.

Who on this site "have called for jaywalking laws" ?

Who on this site "said pedestrains should not be allowed on the road at all" ?


A while back there was quite a long argument where a poster suggested pedestrians should only be allowed to cross at crossings (I think you suggested the same thing recently, as well as implementation of a jaywalking law if people can't stop walking into cars moving at speed).

Rubbish, I said no such thing; you're confusing fantasy with reality.
I take it to mean you actually cant find an example of people calling for jaywalking laws?

weepej wrote:
Then we had the guy that said that a cyclist killed after going through a red light should've been left in the road as an example to other cyclists.

What has this got to do with your claim that I asked you to substantiate?
Care to give a link?

weepej wrote:
Wildcat is consistantly saying how it's good that children who get struck by cars in Sweden (?) are prosecuted for causing accidents.

What has this got to do with your claim that I asked you to substantiate? (Ican't help but suspect you've misrepresented this one)

weepej wrote:
And there's clearly a deep seam running through this forum that roads are for cars, and cars only.

What has this got to do with your claim that I asked you to substantiate?
Again, you're confusing fantasy with reality. I see no such sentiment; if I did I would counter it, believe me. Yes there might be the occasional selfish, antisocial twunt who might suggest it (who may actually be a plant) but there's no such general sentiment. Get over yourself!


So far, one question has gone unanswered, the answer to the other was based on a misrepresentation on your part. Care to try again? :roll:

Who on this site "have called for jaywalking laws" ?

Who on this site "said pedestrains should not be allowed on the road at all" ?

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 21:21 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
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And there's clearly a deep seam running through this forum that roads are for cars, and cars only

That is my increasing impression too.

Where? How?
If I thought that was the case, that there was an anti-non-motorist sentiment in these forums, I would leave! (seriously)
Need I run a poll?

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