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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 15:51 
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weepej wrote:
I'd start by asking what "or brains" means

So why didn't you? Why did you actually start by assuming this had to be a call for jaywalking laws?

weepej wrote:
as clearly even the brainiest person can have a moment around traffic. You yourself said everybody makes mistakes.

They do, but I have also said that better common sense and/or education will go a long way to reducing these mistakes, yes or no?

weepej wrote:
It's a very disjointed statement too, how could a jay walking law apply to somebody who would wear reins?

It doesn't; that's the point of the OR :roll: Do you get it now, or do you really need me to explain it even further?

weepej wrote:
Nobody challenged it, apart from peyote and myself,

So it is not a case of "Nobody challenged it" because two people did just that :roll:
So more people did indeed challenge it than supported it? Is the answer to my simple question so uncomfortable to you that you simply can't bring yourself to answer it?
Could it be that, between the both of you, you presented a compelling case such that no-one else felt they needed to add to it?
Subsequent to your response in that thread, did anyone challenge either you or Peyote? Does your logic work both ways?
When I make such a statement, does it mean those who didn't express their support must be disagreeing with me?

weepej wrote:
and generally when setinements like that are challeged on here the challenger is attacked as alluded to by dcbwhaley and exprienced by myself.

Was Peyote challenged? Was I challenged on the very same subject?

Plenty of questions there for you; let's confirm how selective you are with your answers (or evasions) to those.

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 18:22 
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weepej wrote:
Steve wrote:
:o Ho selective are you?
See the highlight within!


Ohh, very.

I'd start by asking what "or brains" means as clearly even the brainiest person can have a moment around traffic. You yourself said everybody makes mistakes.

It's a very disjointed statement too, how could a jay walking law apply to somebody who would wear reins?


Weepy - he was saying that parents of tots should use parental reins. I have some photos of myself in our family album aged about two.. on reins :lol: Me and Alice used them on our one kids too. I know the Mad Cats use them on their 4 year old and definitely will when the twins start crawling/walking.

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Steve wrote:
Was anyone supporting CJG's statement?


Nobody challenged it, apart from peyote and myself, and generally when setinements like that are challeged on here the challenger is attacked as alluded to by dcbwhaley and exprienced by myself.


I sometimes pop in the odd awkward question to make folk think a lot more :popcorn: I have never encouraged daftness but will confirm we try to apply professional judgement and a hell of a lot of common sense to the fairlly trivial "misdemeanors". Now I know Wildy has posted up threads relating to actual cases from her homeland as regards jay-walkers.

These were not posted for any other reason other than for discussion as to whether the Swiss were right or not :popcorn: I think it's very valid to have this input to compare to - especially when she then posts up some very worrying statistics from those countries which do make you wonder by what criteria are we in 11th place as regards our most vulnerable :popcorn: Even the CTC question this as we are perhaps a lot worse than we believe ourselves to be .. or someone has got the figures badly wrong somehow? :scratchchin:


Hand on heart? We perhaps have the safest road conditions for cyclists and pedestrians as we are still a third below the national average on these as well :popcorn: per the statistics. But read WIldy's reports from abroad.

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Last edited by In Gear on Sat May 16, 2009 18:26, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 18:23 
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weepej wrote:
Steve wrote:
:o How selective are you?
See the highlight within!


Ohh, very.

I'd start by asking what "or brains" means as clearly even the brainiest person can have a moment around traffic. You yourself said everybody makes mistakes.

It's a very disjointed statement too, how could a jay walking law apply to somebody who would wear reins?



Indeed. I am sorry if my report on what happen in my homeland upset somehow? I fact though that jay walking frowned on abroad though. I see no problem in their law :popcorn:


My kittens have always been on reins. As Mama cat .. I am 100% responsible for my kittens und their safety. :popcorn:

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Steve wrote:
Was anyone supporting CJG's statement?


Nobody challenged it, apart from peyote and myself, and generally when setinements like that are challeged on here the challenger is attacked as alluded to by dcbwhaley and exprienced by myself.


Liebchen.. I swam against the tide on one forum (PH). Over Kellett. I was accused of being "anti-police" by a deranged cop because I dared suggest the pair who killed were red misted idiots on a dipsy road. They killed a man by their actions. I was vindicated in my opinion by their Lancs employers.. but when I mention this .. I get told that "the burden of proof in professional disciplinaries less than the court's" :?

Not so in our profession. It like a court hearing.. Reputation of profession/livelihood und self on the line. :popcorn:


I became "BRAKE troll" from that point onwards :shock: :shock: :shock:

MOI? :? Look I support BRAKE in all but speed cam policy. I do not condone stupid though. That includs jaywalking . red light jumping .. stupidity of not driving responsibly.

I support the idea of COAST too. :lol:

But some fools think "speed matter for the sake of it mattering". Safe speed means safe speed which match the actual conditions at any one time. :wink:

:listenup:
It may not mean FAST. It may not mean SLOW. It means safe - but the road user must be responsible for his decison making 100% of the time.

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 19:08 
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By the way . I happen to respect weepej// Peyote und dcb. I understand them.. their points of view -even if I not always agree mit denen.
:roll:

Sorry . My English? It go KAPUTT! :roll: I've been chattering in my own language. It take me time to "focus or tune" to English mode sometimes :roll: As said - by IG und me now .. I refer to the Swiss cases as they worthy to discuss und to consider whether this law could help UK? :popcorn:


If you look closely at Swiss stats - it not that good. I have put up link to German official stats portal as easier to navigate than the Swiss one. :popcorn:
But I can put a link to Swiss data as well .. it all seem to indicate that if UK sink to fifth overall und 11th re "vulnerables" - we have serious trouble .. of which RED LIGHT JUMP FIGURE HIGH! per the foreign press reports backed by their stats :roll:

Weepy .. we are not the enemy to you or anyone else. We post it as it ist .. und tja .. ja :yesyes: we put in our own takes .. I guess.. which you are free to challenge.

You know me und Ted und Charles :hehe: by now surely? We will banter und tease a little to add some lightness (or what we hope to be so... :? :? ) We hope und trust we never seriously offend anyone. We are not "made that way"

We want.. tja.. Ithink hormonal und the "to me apparent "never ending "woe ist me" story of the afterbirth " :bunker: ,, we just want the fair play und more dedicated police on beat/patrol/end to red tape/political correct nonsense.. und al replaced by common sense equity .. justice. as per this land's reputation or tradition.

:popcorn:

I do not think this make posters to this board "right wrong 'un rebels" but decent caring persons of above average intellects who can present a collatedpolished manifesto of merit of what all road users want in due course.
Weepy .. Peyote.. HONESTLY .. I UND TED UND CHARLES UND ENTIRE SWISS FOOLS RESPECT YOU

Do continue to post here. If we disagree with you .. it ist not personal disrespect to you und I think I should try to say so. :love: (I do not mean disrespect to anyone I disagree with. i KNOW. I lack some linguistic "nous" at times. :roll: But you weepy . you send me pm once.. so I know from that alone .. you are one sincere und nice guy to respect. I disclose this to let all know that weepy ist really caring sweety und Steve .. I know/support what you say .. but you are hammering a bit hard here?

Weepy .. chill Liebchen :love: . I understand what you try to say .. do not hate me if I challenge opinion on occasion though.

Ist that fairto you?

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 19:46 
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I don't have a problem with jaywalking legislation, however, it would be dependant on better provision of safe crossings.

I've lived in countries with jaywalkng laws and they seem to work, but then they have put money into the infrastructure behind safe crossings.

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 21:50 
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Safety Engineer wrote:
I don't have a problem with jaywalking legislation, however, it would be dependant on better provision of safe crossings.

I thought that was how the law worked in America, it only applies where there are crossings at every junction? (or something similar.)

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 23:36 
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Ziltro, I believe so.

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 19:15 
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weepej wrote:
Johnnytheboy wrote:
I'm always amused by this quaint notion that motorists and pedestrians are mutually exclusive groups.


I'm always amazed that when I'm out walking with somebody they might moan at people in cars that don't show due respect to pedestrians in their view, but when I'm in a car with them they might moan at pedestrians who don't show due repect for cars in their view.

I've been in a car with somebody who's shouted at another motorist for doing something that they only did five minutes ago, completely oblivious to their own failings.

Some people (and it is only some) literally become motor centric when they're in their car, and pedestrian centric when they're walking, it's like they switch sides.

Literally, we've got people on this site that have called for jaywalking laws/said pedestrains should not be allowed on the road at all as if they've never crossed a road themselves.


A lot of people are very me-centric in their outlook at any given moment, it's far from a problem exclusive to road users but you're right in that it does become more pronounced in this environment. It's a simple, unthinking outlook rather than one driven by pure selfishness I think; they just fail to consider what everyone around them is doing and are then surprised when it lands in their lap. I'm a naturally pre-emptive thinker, also known as a pessimist.

This threads gone way off topic... Pedestrian wait times are all well and good when there are pedestrians crossing.. I'm talking about junctions with 2 way lights that are red for a couple of minutes then green for less than 5 seconds, enough time for 4 cars to pass when there's about a dozen or more queueing. In this context people are going to and are losing their respect for what the traffic light is there to do, and this has serious implications IMHO.

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 21:44 
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weepej wrote:
And there's clearly a deep seam running through this forum that roads are for cars, and cars only

dcbwhaley wrote:
That is my increasing impression too. And that there is a lot of resentment to poster who disagree with that. Although I am very much in agreement with the anti-camera message of Safe Speed I fear that many of the posters are doing the campaign no good.

I don't see that but then I *KNOW* that is not the truth. Can you point me to threads that show this please ?

I have often stated that I am seriously concerned over the serious segregation of all road users and how this divides individuals and encourages less courteous behaviours. As I ride motorbikes, cycle, ride a horse, drive a car and often use trailers and am of course a pedestrian too, I am all for courteous behaviour from ALL people whatever their mode of transport.
I am sorry that you feel this way as I do not believe it to be so, and is certainly not the intention.

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 22:20 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
weepej wrote:
And there's clearly a deep seam running through this forum that roads are for cars, and cars only

dcbwhaley wrote:
That is my increasing impression too. And that there is a lot of resentment to poster who disagree with that. Although I am very much in agreement with the anti-camera message of Safe Speed I fear that many of the posters are doing the campaign no good.

I don't see that but then I *KNOW* that is not the truth. Can you point me to threads that show this please ?



This thread typifies the "roads are for cars" tendency.
http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=20006&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=suicidal
Adam refers to pedestrians crossing the road as "lower social orders" and speaks of passing "as closely as possible" cyclists who annoy him - with the intention of frightening them off the road.

In another thread, which you can find for yourself, a cyclist who was injured by a motorcyclist is held to be culpable because he wasn't wearing a helmet. But motor car passengers injured because they are not wearing seat belts are "tragic victims". I could go on but I would only break my heart attempting to fight such a deeply seated prejudice. And your contention that you *KNOW* disinclines me to attempt to convince one whose mind is firmly closed against an idea they dislike.

This campaign against speed cameras is a fine one which I support wholeheartedly and, Clare, I admire your work. But despite that these forums are populated by a number of self righteous J Bonnington Jagworths who feel that the possession of a driving licence gives them ownership of the roads.

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 22:56 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Adam refers to pedestrians crossing the road as "lower social orders" ...

Excuse me? Haven't we already determined that was aimed at inconsiderate chavs rather than pedestrians in general? Yes we did! It wasn't something you countered.
That's outright lying on your part!

dcbwhaley wrote:
In another thread, which you can find for yourself, a cyclist who was injured by a motorcyclist is held to be culpable because he wasn't wearing a helmet. But motor car passengers injured because they are not wearing seat belts are "tragic victims".

Was this by the same person, or from two? If the latter you are comparing apples and oranges; either way, you're basing your argument on a very small sample size of contributors.

dcbwhaley wrote:
I could go on...

Weepej tried and failed; this is how that attempt ended (no counter).
Did you ever ask your question?

dcbwhaley wrote:
... but I would only break my heart attempting to fight such a deeply seated prejudice.

There might be a few contributors who exhibit such prejudices, but the only deep seated ones regarding the forums in general are within your own heads. Sorry!

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 07:26 
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Steve wrote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
Adam refers to pedestrians crossing the road as "lower social orders" ...

Excuse me? Haven't we already determined that was aimed at inconsiderate chavs rather than pedestrians in general? It wasn't something you countered.

Taken with Adam's general attitude in that thread and other threads: I don't consider that to be determined.

Quote:
That's outright lying on your part!

"On an observed run a while back 3 denizens of the lower social orders ignored my green and their red light and stepped out into the traffic in front of me." That is what Adam said - he refers to pedestrians crossing the road as lower social orders. The fact that he later tries to wriggle out of this bald statement does not make me a liar. Please withdraw that statement.

Quote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
In another thread, which you can find for yourself, a cyclist who was injured by a motorcyclist is held to be culpable because he wasn't wearing a helmet. But motor car passengers injured because they are not wearing seat belts are "tragic victims".

Was this by the same person, or from two? If the latter you are comparing apples and oranges; either way, you're basing your argument on a very small sample size of contributors.

Because I only quoted a single example does not mean that there are not many other examples. And a poster does not need to actually say "Roads are only for motorists" directly - it is often easy to determine their opinion from the general tone of their contributions. But your style of argument and counter argument relies too much on a nit picking analysis of the actual words and seems to be incapable of reading between the lines

Quote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
I could go on...

Weepej tried and failed; this is how that attempt ended (no counter).
Did you ever ask your question?

No. No more did you keep this promise "If I thought that was the case, that there was an anti-non-motorist sentiment in these forums, I would leave!"

Quote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
... but I would only break my heart attempting to fight such a deeply seated prejudice.

There might be a few contributors who exhibit such prejudices, but the only deep seated ones regarding the forums in general are within your own heads. Sorry!


My name is Dave Brown not Zaphod Beeblebrox III - I only have one head :D But that head is capable of seeing more tha one point of view. Sorry!

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 08:33 
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"3 denizens of the lower social orders ignored my green and their red light and stepped out into the traffic in front of me."
DCB,
Maybe you are not getting Adam's sense of humour? To me this doesn't suggest that ALL pedestrians are lower orders just the ones stupid enough to do what these three "idiots" did. We are ALL pedestrians whether we like it or not and I'm sure that we ALL aren't either as stupid as these three or "members of the lower orders". Try looking at things from ALL angles.

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 13:21 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Taken with Adam's general attitude in that thread and other threads: I don't consider that to be determined.

I didn't perceive this. Please can you link examples?

dcbwhaley wrote:
"On an observed run a while back 3 denizens of the lower social orders ignored my green and their red light and stepped out into the traffic in front of me." That is what Adam said - he refers to pedestrians crossing the road as lower social orders. The fact that he later tries to wriggle out of this bald statement does not make me a liar. Please withdraw that statement.

Nope, not until you reasonably demonstrate his subsequent clarification (which I linked) can only support your view. So far, you've offered no counter against how I read his comment, that inconvenient part of my last post which you conveniently decided not to quote (a subset of pedestrians) which oddly enough has never been countered, or his clarification; until you do you have no rightful position to make any such claim.

dcbwhaley wrote:
Because I only quoted a single example does not mean that there are not many other examples. And a poster does not need to actually say "Roads are only for motorists" directly - it is often easy to determine their opinion from the general tone of their contributions. But your style of argument and counter argument relies too much on a nit picking analysis of the actual words and seems to be incapable of reading between the lines

Or,
I'm very comprehensive and I choose not to read something that isn't (or can't prove is) there - and that your style of argument relies on personal perceptions and assumptions.
Your paraphrasing one non-referenced example (not "quoting" as you sweetly put it) doesn't mean you found one, let alone meaning that there are many other examples. You need to show a great many other examples (against the 200,000 posts in total) to show there is a deep seam, not one or two.

dcbwhaley wrote:
Steve wrote:
Weepej tried and failed; this is how that attempt ended (no counter).
Did you ever ask your question?

No. No more did you keep this promise "If I thought that was the case, that there was an anti-non-motorist sentiment in these forums, I would leave!"

So you guys attempts to prove an anti-non-motorist sentiment did indeed fall flat?
Demonstrate that I reasonably had to have "thought that was the case" and I will do so. Weepej tried his best in that respect, even making use of the forum search function to hunt for posts before he joined, which he wouldn’t have seen (unless he read read all 200,000 posts?) to justify his so-called perception :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 13:37 
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Steve wrote:
Weepej tried his best in that respect, even making use of the forum search function to hunt for posts before he joined, which he wouldn’t have seen (unless he read read all 200,000 posts?) to justify his so-called perception :lol:


I don't think you have to explicity state that you're all for jaywalking type laws in one's posts to indicate that's ones' attitude.

It's still my opinion that the general attitude on this site is partisan toward "roads are for cars".


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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 13:48 
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weepej wrote:
Steve wrote:
Weepej tried his best in that respect, even making use of the forum search function to hunt for posts before he joined, which he wouldn’t have seen (unless he read read all 200,000 posts?) to justify his so-called perception :lol:


I don't think you have to explicity state that you're all for jaywalking type laws in one's posts to indicate that's ones' attitude.

It's still my opinion that the general attitude on this site is partisan toward "roads are for cars".


I have shown these forums to a number of non members, my family friends and they all get the same impression. And, Steve, I am not going to provide names, addresses, dobs or passport numbers of these people so that you can verify the truth of what I have said.

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 13:56 
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weepej wrote:
I don't think you have to explicity state that you're all for jaywalking type laws in one's posts to indicate that's ones' attitude.

Correct, but you also needn't explicitly state you are against it to indicate ones attitude too. Your comment ended up being redundant.

Even then, a call for jaywalking laws may be borne purely out of safety, as opposed to an anti-non-motorist sentiment.

weepej wrote:
It's still my opinion that the general attitude on this site is partisan toward "roads are for cars".

Is it right to hold and voice an opinion you have tried yet failed justify?

I still can't get over the way you tried to justify a perception with something you had never seen. Does that sound at all like a reasonable thing to do?

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 14:01 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
I have shown these forums to a number of non members, my family friends and they all get the same impression. And, Steve, I am not going to provide names, addresses, dobs or passport numbers of these people so that you can verify the truth of what I have said.

Did you show them all +200,000 posts (or +20,000 threads), or did you cherry pick them? I think I know which is more likely here!

The simple fact is: you haven't been able to demonstrate such a trend, even though the claim is yours. I mean, if there was, you would have been able to literally reel off a great many posts expressing such sentiment with the greatest of ease. Do I need to find posts expressing anti-camera sentiments and compare that against your list, to prove my point?

If that's the best response you can give to my earlier post to you, isn't this reasonable proof that your perceptions cannot be justified?

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 16:10 
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Steve wrote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
I have shown these forums to a number of non members, my family friends and they all get the same impression. And, Steve, I am not going to provide names, addresses, dobs or passport numbers of these people so that you can verify the truth of what I have said.

Did you show them all +200,000 posts (or +20,000 threads), or did you cherry pick them? I think I know which is more likely here![quote]

Neither. I sat them down in front of the computer and let them read what they wanted without direction from me.

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 Post subject: Re: Red light jumping.
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 15:30 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Neither. I sat them down in front of the computer and let them read what they wanted without direction from me.

So what threads/posts did they read?

Sorry but I have trouble believing that, especially since both of you have comprehensively failed to demonstrate to me why I should act on my promise (which is still open and always will be).
Like I said, it would have been very easy for you to give many recent posts contributing to this 'deep seam', without searching for posts you hadn't seen to justify your perception (weepej :lol: )

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