Safe Speed Forums

Paul, I agree with you but at present what is the alternative ? It's great talking about using public transport or car pooling, buy it's not always realistic. I work alone, visiting sites all over the south east but can work further north, whilst I plan my journey for best efficiency I can get a call to go to investigate an accident so all the plans go out the window and I attend.

Public transport is expensive, becoming more and more unreliable and is not of a conveniant location (for me) many sites are out in the middle of beyond, some don't even have mains services at the time I'm involved, let alone public transport links.

The car is here to stay in one form of another rather than trying to stem the tide accept it and deal with it, again a cultural influence if PT was reliable, reasonably priced and joned up, that would be a huge incentive to give up the car for certain journeys.

But we seem to be trying to price passengers of the railways dumping more into cars.



Completly off topic, but has anyone thought of meeting up - a SafeSpeed convention (for want of a better term) ???

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Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

I think the cultural thing is deeper than you allude to.
In France the manner in which people rect to something, and arrange a protest, is rarely seen here, with the exception of things like the poll tax riots, or the fuel protests.
Central government here moves to prevent and control such acts while in France they simply react to them and "bend with the wind".
My favourite example is a protest in Brittany about supermarkets abandoning home suppliers for pork, and importing from Germany.
At three major supermarkets, overnight a large body of people removed ALL the wheels from the supermarket trolleys left outside, unbolting them and causing chaos in the morning when customers found they could not push the trolleys (even more so than usual ).
The amazing thing was apart from a brief expression of disaproval from the supermarket companies, the customers raised NO objections, and the supermarkets immediately agreed to buy enough local pork to appease the protestors, AND prevent a backlash from sympathetic customers.

That simply WOULD NOT HAPPEN in this country - the Sun would be bleating about pensioners unable to do their shopping, and the government would move to make consumer terrorism punishable by death!

We must motivate the public at large to question their lot, and to lobby hard to get things done.
How many roads are we supporting the building of in Iraq, Kashmir, etc., yet we overlook our own?
Put our own roads, hospitals, schools energy supplies and ECONOMIES in order first, then we will be better placed to help others.
At present, we are in danger of becoming a third world country ourselves if you look at the roads around us!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I would guess this one is something to do with the fact that Portsmouth ferry port is a readily available source of revenue to the scamerati. I regularly use the Portsmouth - Caen ferry, and let me tell you the M275 outbound is like the start of an F1 grand prix - only with overloaded 4x4s and estates competing against pissed up continental lorry drivers.

Thanks Smeggy for reminding me its a 50!!

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6 points for speeding - higher insurance costs. Its the £120 for the B&W photos of the car I object to!

Gentlemen, much as I hate to be a wet blanket and drag this back to its original point. . . . . .

The reason behind the fiasco at this particular roundabout was the length of the 30 zone. Some mile before the works.

Now, without wishing to appear to be 'having a go', FBT is talking in some posts about skidding on loose planings. This is not AFAIK a road resurfacing exercise per se. It's more to do with re-design of a roundabout at a major junction between the A11 and A47 (both major trunk roads at Norwich) to accommodate a newly installed park and ride scheme.

Nearly all the work takes place within a few yards of the roundabout. So, why the need for a 1 mile 30 limit FFS? That's taking the p*ss. That's why drivers were ignoring it. And, as one who has driven it I can tell you - it's bloody frightening trying to do 30mph and all you can see in the rear view is a 40tonne artic bearing down at 56mph (on its limiter) It's no wonder that the normally sensible and limit abiding drivers 'join in' and ignore - to them its safer - or is perceived to be!

I raised this issue (after being badly frightened as above) with the Highways Agency and was 'fobbed off' with some platitudes about how there MAY be a need for the workers to work further down, and some horse feathers about queueing traffic. There are always queues at that island FFS!

On another point, someone wrote in to the press today suggesting that a drop from NSL (70) to 30 is no enforceable as it's too big a drop. Anyone in the know care to comment on that? I ask because one suggestion that I made to the HA was to stagger the speed reductions - 70 -60 -50 -40- 30
or something similar. More likely to get compliance methinks.

Thoughts??

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Stultus est sicut stultus facit - a known fact
Stercus accidit - a truism!

Extract from an email to my MP, Phil Hope (Labour, Corby) on 21 October 2005.

When going to Norfolk on the A11 of Friday evening and approaching the Thickthorn roundabout, just outside Norwich, at 10:00 in the evening there was at temporary (now obviously quite permanent) 30mph speed limit on this major dual carriageway when there was obviously no road works taking place. I said to my wife “they must be taking the piss”, did they really expect anyone to observe this speed limit, which no one was, so what a golden opportunity that would have been for the police with there speed cameras.

Being new to this site and catching up with this thread I can only echo and support Fatboytim and Safety Engineer.

As a Supervisor and designer of short and long term roadworks I can only support the actions of the Police to enforce the Limit. Today I have a Permanant speed limit of 40 on a Job I designed. Cars are happily xxxxxx through past staff working metres away. Lorries two abreast in a lane clearly signed for a 7.5t weight limit.

The death rate on TM operative sis horrendous. TM ops have a 1 in 300 chance of dying every time they come to work.

I will continue to include Speed Cameras and enforcement measures in roadworks I design. If all the drivers continue to drive without thought for others on the road, well Im sorry tough.

I will do my part to design the best type of road works with the shortest duration, largest capacity and highest speed past possible, but Im sorry all, drive without courtesey and consideration for roadworkers and the Police will continue to take action to assist us.

Conelayer

Have you got a reference for that?



Have you seen trl595? http://www.safespeed.org.uk/trl595.html

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

With respect to ConeLayerSW, I would suggest that with the A11 dual carriageway approach to the Thickthorn roundabout at Norwich, they did not need to extend the speed limit to about a mile or more from the road works and they did not need to have such a speed limit in place when there was no one working there, particularly over the long Christmas holiday.

I also seriously question whether it was necessary, reasonable and proportionate to set the speed limit at low as 30mph, except perhaps on the large roundabout itself, where I understand most of the work was being done. Previously a 40mph limit has proved to be quite adequate for similar roadworks in the area.

I would also suggest that before bringing in the heavy handed speed camera solution without warning after 3 months, more consideration should have been given to other ways to bringing attention to the need slow down, such as better warning signs and even news broadcasts. But then the police could not have trapped so many motorists if they new the speed camera was going to be there.

If heavy lorries were a matter of particular concern to worker on the central reservation, then it would have been possible to restrict them to the nearside lane for the critical part of the road works.

If you set a ridiculously low and quite unreasonable long speed restrictions, which are in operation when not needed, then can you really expect drivers to respect that if you do not make them reasonable and proportionate to what is actually required.

May I also suggest the possibility of using some temporary physical barriers to protect workers, particularly for long duration roadworks. However I question the statistic of “TM ops have a 1 in 300 chance of dying every time they come to work” since that would give them a life expectancy of about a year, and I believe they actually live somewhat longer, so it is beginning to sound like the fallacious speed camera statistic of a 50% reduction in accidents.

I don’t want any workers to be exposed to unreasonable risks, but that surely does not provide an excuse to arbitrarily apply excessive restrictions, since the passing drivers effected also have there business to do as well and the congestion that can be caused by unreasonable restriction to traffic can also cause accidents.

As we all know, however, the great advantage of using speed cameras is that they bring in revenue for the police, where as any other solution would cost money to the contractors, so we know which will be the preferred solution.

As is always the case it is easier to apply restrictions and penalise anyone who does not comply, rather than try to find intelligent and creative solutions which provides the best outcome to all the parties concerned. However in these matters of course it is the Police and Highway agency which make all the decisions in their favour and the affected drivers have no say in the matter.

i have not commented on this thread for personal reasons,

but conelayer you are very welcome

from my experience with roadworks there is normaly a request from the contractor for regular enforcement which starts say about a week after the signs go up hence regular users of that road know thta cameras are likely to be used.

this set up seems a little different cameras were deployed 3 months after the roadworks started, one side would say money making get the figures up, but IMO up to the deployment of cameras did anyone take any notice of the temp limit i doubt it, how many near misses were reported by the contractors,

i have worked in temp roadworks 50 mph limit speeds in the 70's common unfortunatley top speed 93mph

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now retired

IF the cameras worked, and actually caused ALL drivers to slow to the posted limit, then there would be no need to have any film in them, or prosecute offenders.
So, we must assume that in spite of the cameras drivers STILL speed through the roadworks.

In fact each camera opportunity comes with a press release about how many drivers have been caught in spite of the cameras, and isnt it dreadful about the toll on road workers!

So what happens to the workers before and after the camera - are they some how miraculously protected from the speeding drivers who get caught?
Does some "hand of God" smite them, and cause them to avoid striking any further road workers?

NO! they carry on regardless - perhaps until the NIP arrives in the post, or if they feel it was unfair, they continue even after the NIP, just hoping to be more vigilant, and avoid getting clocked in front of a camera.

What Paul Smith is trying to make you see, is that we should be educating drivers to drive more safely EVERYWHERE, not just in road works, and that Speed Cameras are just not doing the job - those press releases either prove it, or they are pointless bull5h1t!

We have discussed in this thread, and another, the various safety apparatus available - plastic or concrete interlocking barrier, and bumper trailers, but wouldn't it be better if we taught drivers more effectively, to slow for workers in the roads, just as they do for horses.... maybe if you shit on their bonnet if they got too close.... cyclists, mothers with pushchairs.... actually the drivers who speed in your roadworks and show no respect, probably scare the shit out of the above too - and it takes policemen to stop them, NOT cameras!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

As I think most on this site would agree that there is a small minority of drivers who are basically criminal (no tax, ins, license, banned, drugged, drunk, uncorrected eyesight..) and/or discourteous I think a figure of 5% has been mentioned. At a roadworks 20,000 cars can pass in a ten hour shift, potentially 1000 criminal drivers passing each roadworker each day.
The solution as always proper roads policing to catch them or educate before they drive thru roadworks, highstreets, your street.
fbt

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

is there always film in them though !!! but more of a deterrant than VRM

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now retired

In any roadworks there is likely to be a conflict between keeping the highways as unrestricted as possible, while providing the workmen with the space and safety they need. In this there are likely to be some very good examples, with due consideration for the needs of all parties, and others which are ill-considered and poorly organised.

The Thickthorn roundabout appeared to be a case where the Highway Agency seemed to think they could arbitrarily apply any restrictions they wanted for as long as they wanted, even when and where there was no work taking place, with little consideration of the effect on the drivers using that road.

Looking at this from the point of view of most reasonable drivers, not the few excessive speeders, one can well understand that those regularly driving through such roadworks will make a judgement about the need for the applied restrictions and how best to safely deal with them. Hence when they repeatedly see that there are no hazards and no work is taking place then one can understand that they will see it as another case of the authorities “Crying Wolf” with unreasonable restrictions which the drivers come to disrespect and disregard.

Rather that those responsible giving due consideration to why their restrictions were ignored, and adapt them accordingly, they preferred to bring out the “big stick” of the police speed traps to take retribution on large numbers of ordinary motorists who were behaving in a perfectly rational an reasonable manner, given the circumstances, and who dared to ignore the ill-considered dictates of the autocratic authorities, who seem very keen to wield their authority, but unwilling to relinquish it where it is not necessary.

Well said!
Just as justice needs to be done, and seen to be done, then Authorities must earn respect for their actions for them to succeed.

However, their task would be simpler if drivers were better drivers than the average standard nowadays.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Gentlemen.

I agree with all that you are saying. I am trying to educate teh Highways Agencies appointed engineers who have no clue about traffic management. It is a specialist task now. NOt a Bridge engineers job. The road works you are all complaining about I would utterley agree are badly designed with 'little knowledge is dangerous'.

However

Even if you employ the use of SPECS at road works doesn’t mean they’ll stop bad driving.



I agree we would complain, but it would probably only be one or two people doing it, so what your saying is the rest of drivers who show common sense should suffer for the few who don’t.



I don’t disagree with your concerns about safety, however from the three examples above I’d say none of them where caused by speeding drivers. This is where it’s all going wrong. Any accidents and the immediate response is install a speed camera, speed cameras don’t catch bad drivers.

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

Ok, so as a ballpark estimate we could say 5 deaths out of 1,500 in a year. So assuming that those figures are true, a risk of 1 in 300 per year per individual is bad, but not out-of-sight bad. It'd be far better than fishermen for example. It's also about 200 times better than your original statement that implied daily risk.

The next issue to discuss is how to reduce the risk. It's likely to be about training, information, work practices and attitudes to risk - much more so than speeds or regulations.

Responsible road users need information. Irresponsible road users need policing. Your guys need the best training and the best working practices.

Sometimes speed limits will be of benefit, but they are no panacea. Getting hit at 40mph is mostly fatal. Getting hit at 70mph is also mostly fatal. The only 'trick' is to avoid getting hit.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Can any one caught at this site please contact me with pictures or any other information you may have.
We need to unite and get as many people as possible to fight this one.

Steve

Was that you on the phone this morning?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety